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How Christians Engage with the Public Square

Agoraphobia

Agoraphobia: the fear of public places. 

This term is normally used when someone is afraid to go into public due to an anxiety disorder. But the word, “Agoraphobia” is associated with ancient Greek culture due to its origin. “Agora” translates to “gathering place” or “assembly.” Every Greek city-state had an Agora where there was a public gathering of citizens who discussed politics, philosophy, and heard reports from governing authorities.

It’s also where we get our word for the “Public Square.” Over time, the Agora became a place for commerce, justice, and religion. It was the focal point for community life in the Greek city-state. But today, the Public Square can be found in any nation, any city. Wherever there is a general location for discussion, from small tribes in Africa to the busy streets of New York.

In today’s digital culture, most “public square” conversations are held online, through social media and other online forums. Since Christians are represented in the “Agora,” and if Christians are commanded to make disciples and live missionally, we must not have a fear of the public square. So, how should Christians engage it with the gospel? Should Christians engage with political and social action, or should they disengage entirely to “keep peace?”

For Leaders

Last week on the podcast, we hosted Brent Leatherwood with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) to discuss how Christians engage with the Public Square. If you’re reading this, you are probably a Christian leader who wants to steward your opportunity well.

First, leaders should first recognize the importance of helping Christians think biblically about political and social matters. Some Christians completely shy away from any political discussions. Either they get too overwhelmed, or they feel like they should separate from any and all worldly discussions in an attempt to “love not the world or the things of the world.”

But the Christian life is inherently cultural and contextual. Living on mission means we must understand our mission field, and that means being informed about the matters that affect our lives in the social sphere. The biblical examples are too many to count – Christians have always utilized their station in life to be the light of Christ in a dark world, and more often than not, that Christian living affects the public square in which they live.

Second, leaders must leverage the tools in front of them to disciple their congregations. God has lended the pulpit to pastors to preach the word. Pastors should carefully steward their time on Sunday mornings to help Christians exerise wisdom in their context. This does not mean telling your congregation who to vote for and dictating political responsibilities. But it does mean allowing God’s word to speak to contextual Christian living. As leaders, we cannot weaponize our opportunity, but leverage it in a Godly and peaceful way.

On the other side, we must not shy away from all discussion and ignore the issues surrounding us. Faithful preaching will simply preach the word, but make application of the word to the congregation.  If your church is a voting poll, or a gathering place during the week for city meetings, utilize your people and place to show the love of Christ to the community. For example, this can be done by handing out snacks and water bottles, and praying over people as they walk out. We must lead by example, helping our people see the need of living on Mission for Jesus Christ.

For Churches

The ERLC is re-launching a wonderful resource that helps Christian engage the public square. You can find the link here: A Christian Guide to Political Engagement. Please utilize this resource and apply it to your context.

Biblically informed, God-honoring engagement from Church Members is not just helpful. It’s needed. We need wise Christians to be an influence in every area of life, including politics, for the Glory of God. Here are three ways that Christians can engage with the public square.

Public Theology

E. Harold Brietenberg, in defining Public Theology, wrote a helpful article in 2003 called “To Tell the Truth: Will the Real Public Theology Please Stand Up?” In it, he defined Public Theology as, “Theologically informed public discourse about public issues, addressed to the church…as well as the larger public or publics, argued in ways that can be evaluated and judged by publicly available warrants and criteria.”

Public Theology can bring light and clarity to many cultural issues. In his podcast

Thinking in Public and The Briefing, Al Mohler explains the theological connections and issues associated with Cancel Culture, Social Justice, Critical Race Theory, Abortion, and Transgenderism. As much as the culture exhibits a polarity of opinions related to this variety of topics, Christians should be able to articulate what they believe and why—a precedent set by 1 Peter 3:15.

Public Ministry

Mark Clifton says that Replanted churches must focus on “making disciples who make disciples who make the community noticeable better.” This said, churches in revitalization should place effort towards ministry in their community. Like Public Theology, Public Ministry is a form of political activism because it concerns itself with having activity in the affairs of the public square. Using the term “Public Ministry” is related to social action, but helps dispel the negative connotations associated with the Social Gospel Movement which helped give rise to the religious left today.

In Luke’s gospel, Jesus begins his public ministry by announcing his personal fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy in Luke 4:18-19. “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” When we minister in the name of Jesus, we are continuing the ministry that Jesus left to his disciples when he ascended into heaven, and we will continue ministering until he returns. 

Christians today involving themselves with any sort of public ministry should recapture the original intent of Christ’s ministry—to demonstrate his supremacy and restoration of sin, in all areas of life. Due to the complexity of cultural facets today complicated by time, sin, and population, Christians have many options for various public ministries such as pro-life ministries, sex trafficking ministries, justice ministries, medical ministries, and financial ministries. God places distinct burdens, gifts, abilities, and desires in each of us, and desires that we would be faithful in whatever calling He has on our lives. We need only to obey and magnify his Lordship while doing whatever task he has given us.

Public Office

 Finally, another great way Christians can practice political activism is by running for public office. This effort involves those who are especially skilled in leadership, but Christians in political office can have a great impact on society. Each Christian should consider their own vocation and calling on their life and consult their abilities and skills as well as support from friends and family before considering running for office. While Scripture does not specifically tell Christians to try and run for political office, it does contain numerous examples of characters who were types of governing officials and in positions of influence.

In 1 Corinthians 4:1-2, Paul says, “This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.” Paul’s greatest desire is that he would be known for the way he obeyed his Lord and the way he handled the truth of the gospel in all areas of life. May this ethical and evangelistic mindset be the every Christian who desires to actively engage their culture with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For more information, please see my thesis on this topic from SEBTS: Transformative Cultural Engagement in Political Activism. I hope it’s helpful. 

Ep 237 – Hometown Hope with Brayden Buss

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Ep 237 - Hometown Hope with Brayden Buss
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In this episode, we listen to the field to learn from the boots-on-the-ground story of Brayden Buss, a pastor returning to his roots at the First Baptist Church in Okmulgee, OK as he shares his journey of returning to pastor the church where he grew up, stressing the importance of understanding and respecting a church’s legacy while adapting to changing demographics and community needs.

He discusses the challenges and strategies associated with revitalizing a church, including leadership development, member mobilization, and the personal aspect of being a pastor in a familiar community. Brayden also touches on the significance of loving and caring for the church to foster revitalization effectively.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Arrival
00:52 Guest Background and Personal Journey
02:26 Challenges of Pastoring in Hometown
03:44 Legacy of Family in Ministry
05:46 Understanding and Adapting to Community Changes
08:39 Revitalizing the Church: Strategies and Challenges
16:57 Member Mobilization and Leadership Development
24:08 Final Thoughts and Prayer

Is your website weighing you down? Get some help by connecting with our great sponsor: oneeighty digital

Show transcripts are an approximation of the podcast, audio should be consulted for exact detail

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Know Your Context

“Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” – Peter Drucker.

You may be able to rightly divide the word of God. You may lead people, teams, and organizations. You may care well for those in your congregation. However, without understanding your surrounding context, it will be difficult for you to connect with your people.

Bob Bumgarner, guest on the Replant Bootcamp podcast this week, said, “Listening to the field will lead you to the future.” This statement emphasizes the importance of cultural exegesis. Cultural exegesis is paying close attention to the surrounding culture around you and being able to use that to minister wherever God has placed you. 

If you are involved in a Replant or Revitalization of any kind, cultural exegesis will be critical to consider, and there are several tools to help you in that effort.

Here are a few ways to be more intentional about your surrounding context, ranked from least to most important.

Study your demographic

In episodes 86 and 89 of the podcast, Josh Dryer helped us understand demographics’ vital role in your ministry. When I began working with churches at our association, we used a resource called Mission Insite to provide a detailed report of demographics in our area. Using those reports, I created customized demographics for all our churches and began speaking on Sunday evening services, doing a presentation called “Who’s My Neighbor?” 

While “demographics” sounds boring to some people, this presentation helped our churches understand what the most significant ministry needs in their area. Part of cultural exegesis involves thinking missiologically. If you use demographics to pull income information, average age, ethnicity, and family structures, ask yourself, “Does my church look like my community?” Demographics paint a picture with broad strokes to help us recognize how God wants to use our churches most effectively.

Be in your community.

Another way to “Listen to the Field” is by being active in your community. As a Replant or Revitalization pastor, you will do yourself a favor by being as active in the community as possible. Some of the most helpful conversations I have been in have been at the coffee shop, a football game, or a city council meeting. 

Please forgive me for quoting a Johnny Cash song instead of a theological book. Still, in the song “No Earthly Good,” Johnny says, “The gospel ain’t gospel until it is spread, but how can you share it where you’ve got your head; There are hands that reach out for a hand if you would, so heavenly minded, you’re no earthly good.” In the podcast, Bob said, “You can’t exegete your community from your desk.” Don’t forget that as a shepherd, you need to smell like the sheep. Be where your people are, and use your insight from the surrounding community to help you minister to their needs.

Listen to your people.

The best way to learn about your community and surrounding culture is to listen to your people. 

What do they fear? What do they value? What is essential for your church in this community?

After doing a “Who’s My Neighbor” presentation, one of our churches recognized the need to focus outwardly on their low-income neighborhoods. So, they consulted an agency to do food drop-offs and started doing a bi-monthly food giveaway. On the second Saturday of those months, I drive through their town and see cars lined up for miles. With each bag of food, they give away tracts and invitations for people to visit their church. It all started with a pastor asking his congregation, “What do you think are major needs in our community?”

Don’t forget that those congregation members have likely been in your town longer than you and will be there long after you are gone. As they listen to you preach the word, listen to their needs and let them lead their engagement in the community.

Be led by the Holy Spirit.

Mentioned in this episode was Henry Blackaby’s classic work Experiencing God. In the book, Blackaby suggests that we should look around, see where God is at work, and then join him in that work. Blackaby would say that we need to be led by the Spirit if we are seeking to engage our communities where we are. 

The Holy Spirit’s work involves prompting, convicting, and leading. If we are walking by the Spirit, expect to think of prompted ways you can understand and minister to your context. Karl Bart once said we should “Have the Bible in one hand and a newspaper in another.” Use scripture to exegete your culture. One example given was in Acts 6, where there was a need that arose among the apostles. The widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution. The word of God continued to spread when the apostles addressed the need, listened to the people, and met the community’s needs (Acts 6:1-7).

My encouragement to church leaders is that we would not be tone-deaf to the culture but would instead be good students of the culture. While the gospel’s message never changes, ministry opportunities sometimes change around us. If we study the people and listen to them while we are in the community, the Holy Spirit will lead us to minister effectively for the glory of God.

EP 229 – Serving in Bi-Vocational Ministry

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EP 229 - Serving in Bi-Vocational Ministry
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Are you a bi-vocational pastor? Take a couple of minutes and fill out this survey: https://su.vc/bivosurvey

Pastor Matt MacNaughton is back on the Bootcamp to talk further about bi-vocational ministry. This time we are also joined but Pastor Colin Pugh. Collin pastors Clinton Baptist Church in the D.C. area.

Maintaining Spiritual Appetite and Pastoral Grit: Colin emphasizes the importance of maintaining a strong relationship with God, especially in the challenges of bi-vocational ministry. He highlights key verses from Jude (20-21) as instrumental in his spiritual growth. JimBo explores how Colin managed the high expectations of pastoring two churches and the importance of maintaining energy and spiritual vitality.

Serving Your Spouse: The guys discuss practical ways to serve and support their wives amid busy and demanding schedules, highlighting the significance of intentional communication and quality time.

Shared Leadership: Matt shares strategies for bivocational pastors, including determining priorities, developing leaders, and delegating responsibilities to create margin for essential tasks. Colin emphasizes the role of small groups, one-on-one meetings, and showing appreciation for small wins in developing leaders within the church.

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What is Working Genius and How Does it Work for You?

Over the past eighteen months, our church has been revising and rewriting the church bylaws.  This has been an arduous, complicated process that took much longer than anyone expected.  The team that took on the project was coed and economically and generationally diverse. We expected to have disparate opinions and different ways of looking at many of the same issues.  We expected to have different strengths and weaknesses as we worked through this important project.

But there was one thing we didn’t expect– some of us felt excited during the same phases that left others feeling overwhelmed and frustrated. For several of us, the project’s initial phase was the most exciting– we loved asking questions and defining what needed to happen.  The possibility of creating a new document for our church that would be used for years to come was so inspiring! The lack of structure and organization during this time felt time-consuming and unproductive for others.  Likewise, some of us felt energized toward the end of the project as we saw all of the hard work come together, and we began to encourage our church about some new directions and ideas.  Others were ready to move on to the next project and wished we could move quicker to the next thing.

Did these differences mean that our team was unsuccessful?  Not at all. These differences are necessary and beneficial!  On a recent episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast, Jimbo and Bob walked listeners through a new tool called “Working Genius” by Patrick Lencioni.  Though the premise may sound similar to other personality tests and quizzes, the “genius” behind Working Genius is finding out where your team’s skills lie and which parts of a project line up with those specific gifts.

six types of working genius

The Good News: We’re All Geniuses!

One of the best aspects of Working Genius?  We are all geniuses!  It’s true– we all have an area of uniquely talented gifting.  We are more fulfilled and happier when we can work within what we are naturally good at.  In addition to seeing what our skills and gifts say about us, we can also find out where we fit within our team and project phases.  

The Six Types of Working Genius

According to Lencioni, the six types of Working Genius are:

  • The genius of wonder: The natural gift of pondering the greater potential and opportunity in any situation.  People gifted in this area love asking questions and feel creative in ambiguity.
  • The genius of invention: The natural gift of creating original and novel ideas and solutions. People gifted with this genius find joy in taking the challenges and generating solutions. They enjoy innovating from scratch and love a blank whiteboard piece of paper with which they can brainstorm.
  • The genius of discernment: The natural gift of intuitively and instinctively evaluating ideas and situations.  People gifted in this area are good curators of what’s going on around them and can recognize patterns. They know how to connect the dots and give people good feedback across a broad range of topics.
  • The genius of galvanizing: The natural gift of rallying, inspiring, and organizing others to take action.  People with this genius love to get things moving. They’re great at pushing people out of their comfort zones, inspiring them to get started, and moving them in the right direction.
  • The genius of enablement: The natural gift of providing encouragement and assistance for an idea or project.  This genius is people-oriented– they want to help realize a vision and provide the support needed to move.
  • The genius of tenacity: The natural gift of pushing projects or tasks to completion to achieve results. People gifted in this genius are task-oriented.  They love to take things across the finish line, and they ensure that a project is going to have the impact it’s supposed to have.

Project Stages

Every project has a workflow structure that follows a specific pattern.  The initial stage, where we are asking questions and answering with possible solutions, is called “ideation.”  This is the stage where people with the workplace geniuses of Wonder or Invention will feel energized, focused, and most productive.

In the next stage, we have answered our questions and have decided on a possible course of action.  But we are still getting ready for the next step.  We need people whose workplace genius is Discernment or Galvanizing to help us move into activation.  They will help us create “buy-in” for the ideas and ensure we move in the right direction.  The people with these geniuses will be excited to engage others in the work and cooperate with every team member.

Finally, after we ask and answer all the questions, cohesively move toward solutions, and ensure we are heading in the right direction, we are ready for the final stage of the project: Implementation.  In this stage, people with the working genius of Enablement or Tenacity will find joy in checking off boxes, encouraging others in their work, and getting the project to completion.

The Bad News: We’re Not Always Geniuses!

A name tag that reads "Hello I am a Genius"

Lencioni states that each person has two geniuses that fit them well– these strengths allow them to feel the most joy while at work on a project. Each person also has two Working Competencies.  These are the areas where we can perform the work, and we may even find satisfaction in it.  While we might be somewhat gifted in these areas, they do not bring us joy.  We also have two areas that are working frustrations.  These areas bring us– you guessed it– frustration.  These are the areas where we just really don’t enjoy this aspect of a project.  

Unfortunately, we are not always able to avoid those Working Frustrations.  As Replant Pastors, we are often called to work on a project from start to finish, regardless of which stage of the project brings us joy. So, how do we work within those moments of frustration without getting… frustrated?

Finding Einstein

A picture of Albert Einstein

There is this temptation, especially as a Replant Pastor with limited resources and limited people, to believe that you have to do it all.  Everything rests on you.  Each project is for you to accomplish from start to finish, whether rewriting bylaws or redoing the children’s classrooms.

Pastor, here is some truth: You can’t do it all.  If you thought you could, you would quickly discover that road leads to exhaustion, discouragement, and burnout.  (See last week’s podcast episode and blog for some tips to avoid burnout.)  You need other people.  You specifically need other people who aren’t just like you.  You need other geniuses in the room!

I can tell you from experience it isn’t easy to work with someone with a different genius.  If you have the genius of Wonder, you’re going to frustrate someone with the genius of Tenacity.  While you’re asking all the questions, they’ll just want to push forward to the part where they can start doing something.  If you have the genius of Invention, you may feel unsupported by someone with the genius of Discernment who doesn’t think your idea is a perfect one.

But we must recognize that those differences, however frustrating they may be, allow us to work better. Romans 12:3-8 reminds us that God, in His grace, gives us different gifts– but just as important, it reminds us that we aren’t to think more highly of ourselves because of our specific gifts.  We cannot envy someone else’s unique gifts or judge their gifts as somehow less than ours.

I recently attended a symphony concert with my daughter.  As we listened to the incredible music, I never thought, “Man, I wish this was just 150 trumpets all doing the same thing.” As much as I might love to hear the trumpet, the music was beautiful because every instrument was playing its part at the perfect time and volume.  The trumpet player wasn’t jealous of the violinist because it took both of them to create the symphonic sound.  Likewise, the trumpet player didn’t look down on the harpist because a trumpet couldn’t make that sound, which was necessary for the piece. 

Find the other Einsteins in your congregation with a genius that is different than yours– and then work with them on projects to make sure you’re all playing your part cohesively and beautifully for the Gospel.

If you want to take the Working Genius test or purchase it for your team, you can find more information here: https://www.workinggenius.com/about. And if you’re interested in other resources for team building and team strategies, check out our podcast episodes on Leadership Judo by searching the term or by looking at Les McKeown’s work on Predictable Success.

Every Generation Matters

Every Generation Matters

Do you genuinely love and have a deep, affectionate care towards every generation in your church? In a world of target groups, demographic information, and “projected growth rates,” it can be tempting to gear your ministry and activity towards a specific generation and fail to honor others.

In a Replant or Revitalization every generation matters and has a vital role in the local church’s life. Some have a tendency to adopt ministry approaches that are only geared toward the next generation of children, students, or young adults. The older generation starts to feel a bit…shoved out the door. On the opposite side is a tendency to only cater to the older generation for fear of your faithful few leaving and causing a stir after being long-time members. After all, they’ve contributed to the church much longer, right?

As a Replant leader, you must have an affinity for reaching multiple generations to connect with all age groups and ensure they are loved, valued, and heard. Multi-generational ministry is essential because that’s the picture of the gospel-centered community we see in Christ. And Jesus Christ said, “I will build MY church…” Salvation is not age-limited, and healthy churches should do all they can to focus on ministering to every age group of believers.

A Mosaic of God’s Grace

Multi-generational ministry shows a beautiful mosaic of God’s divine grace in the makeup of a local church. Some people come to Christ at eight years old, some in their twenties, and some in their late 80s. The drawing and convicting work of the Holy Spirit is no respecter of persons, and the salvation that God brings can come at any age in which someone repents and believes in Jesus Christ for salvation.(Thank God!!) 

In the biblical community, the local church comprises vast differences in age groups but with the same common denominator: The gospel. Paul didn’t preach differently towards differing people; he said, “We preach Christ and him crucified.” In Galatians 3:28, Paul explains that we are all one in Christ. This beautiful text shows that those who do not support multiple generations of focused ministry do not truly understand the gospel.

The gospel unites a church behind the banner of Christ regardless of age, ethnicity, socio-economic condition, or anything else. 

Holistic Discipleship and Biblical Instruction

In the epistles, age groups have different roles. In Titus 2:3-5, older women are taught to instruct and disciple younger women to care for their families and grow in their godliness and calling. In Titus 2:2, Older men are advised to be sober-minded, dignified in every way, and to lead in holiness. Younger men and women are taught to listen to and submit to their elders and are instructed to serve with passion and zeal. 

You see, if we want to express the biblical community modeled in the New Testament and taught in the Epistles, we must seek to reach every generation with the gospel and encourage them in different service areas of the church. If we want to do discipleship in the most holistic way possible, it takes every generation playing their part.

Build Bridges, Not Barriers

If you want to build bridges between different age groups, one of the worst things you can do is separate your people at every possible moment. That means having various worship services that target different age groups, having only age-specific discipleship groups, and misplacing expectations on specific age groups without considering the others.

Instead, we must seek out ways to build bridges between generations. Don’t focus on worship being too “young” or “old.” Just practice biblically sound worship. Look for ways to fellowship with one another outside of regular church practice. Create opportunities for younger men and women to be poured into by the older generation. 

Every generation has strengths and weaknesses. Celebrate and utilize their strengths instead of complaining about a group’s shortcomings. A good leader will look past the imperfections, celebrate spiritual gifts, and employ them when possible. It helps to eliminate preconceived notions about a specific generation and focus on ministering to them. As you pour into them, you’ll likely be surprised at their growth and openness.

Outdo One Another in Showing Honor

When you target preaching on inter-generational relationships, it can be a beautiful picture of discipleship. 

We often equate longevity to spiritual maturity. But this is not always the case. Are older generations  not receptive to change? No, we need to get rid of our preconceived notions. Some of the older generation have seen enough of the hardship in their church that they may be willing to try anything to see their church grow as it once did. 

Scripture commands us to outdo one another in showing honor. Scripture commands us to die to ourselves. Scripture commands us to humble ourselves. Scripture commands us to love one another. If you want to build relationships between generations, start with scripture. God’s word has an answer to everything pertaining to life and godliness.

In some encouraging words from Jimbo and Bob, they said, “Pastor the people God has called you to, not the one you want to pastor.” Multiple generations is a picture of gospel unity made possible by Christ. Don’t fear the generational gap. Embrace it for the glory of God.

The Local Association and the Local Pastor: Make it A Dynamic Duo

 

Batman and Robin

This past summer, my husband and I were on a mission trip to California.  We were speaking with a replant pastor there and were telling him how surprised we were that their local association listed churches for sale on their website.  We were heartbroken that these churches weren’t being replanted or revitalized.  Instead, the association was selling them for commercial property to the highest bidder.  “That doesn’t surprise me,” he said.  “We have spent the past five years trying to help with replanting and planting churches in this area, but the association hasn’t done anything.  They haven’t invested time, money, or resources.  It seems like the association doesn’t care.” 

We were stunned.

But as we talked about this at the base camp that night, we realized that we had heard those same sentiments over 15 years ago from a different pastor in a completely different context.  We started our ministry journey in 2007, and at that time, we asked the youth pastor at the church we served in what the local association did to assist pastors in the area.  “I couldn’t tell you,” he said.  “I’m not even sure who leads it. We haven’t heard from them since the last pastor left several years ago.” Again, we were stunned.  

These are extreme examples and are not the norm for most associations and pastors.  The vast majority of local associations have leaders who are working alongside the churches in their area and are committed to replanting and revitalizing dying churches.  But for some of our replant pastors, this extreme is the unfortunate, heartbreaking context in which they find themselves. How can we create a partnership that thrives and flourishes? What separates the associations and pastors who have an amazing partnership and those who, unfortunately, don’t?

This week on the podcast, JimBo and Bob discussed how associational leaders can be partners in the gritty and glorious work of replanting dying churches.  They identified the “Seven C’s” of church renewal for local AMS leaders (Associational Mission Strategist, formerly DOM, Director of Missions) and their pastors to navigate the complex oceans of church health.  

What Does Success Look Like?

The very first “C” is the most important.  Without it, everything else lacks clear direction.  Our first “C” is this: Correctly define success.

What does a “successful” church look like?  If your association is celebrating accomplishments and applauding “success,” what metric are they using?  Pastors and AMS leaders alike may be tempted to base success on numerical attendance.  But consider these statistics:

  • A “normative” size church is a church with less than 199 gathered in worship.
  • 91% of all SBC churches have less than 200 gathered in worship on any given Sunday, and 79% have less than 100.
  • Out of all the churches in the SBC today, less than 90 report an attendance of over 2,000.

Mark Clifton defines success at a church this way: A culture of making disciples that make disciples that in turn make the community noticeably better.  

When we base success on the number of attendees on Sunday morning, we are like the couple who goes on a long road trip without deciding who is navigating: We may get somewhere eventually, but we’re going to miss opportunities along the way and we may end up with some hurt feelings before we get there. 

If we aren’t correctly identifying what success looks like, we will miss the opportunity to celebrate God’s faithfulness in churches that are making disciples and positively impacting their communities.  We will look at the church running large numbers and assume that God is doing great work there but will fail to look at the small church that has increased their giving to missions and has built a discipleship program from scratch.

If we fail to define success correctly, we also run the risk of alienating our partnering churches by making them feel insignificant. Our churches will feel overlooked and unappreciated, and their pastors will feel unsupported and alone, a recipe for burnout and frustration.

An Association of Collaboration

Mario and Luigi from the Super Mario Bros franchise

Our next three “Cs” all work together, and that’s fitting because they call us to… All work together!

As an AMS, the networking capabilities are practically built-in.  An AMS has access to one thing many pastors don’t have… Other pastors! Too often, pastors forget that we are all in this glorious calling together.  We get consumed with a spirit of competition between churches.  But the church down the street is not our competition– they are our colaborers in Christ!

While Southern Baptist churches are autonomous and make their own decisions, AMSs have the unique opportunity to encourage pastors to shift from a competitive mindset to a collaborative one by implementing three words: Cooperation, cohorts, and callings.

An AMS can connect a church with resources to one that is lacking them.  AMSs should be continually looking for opportunities to foster relationships between churches, not just pastors.  Is there a church with an exceptional Children’s Ministry? Parter their team with one that is just starting to grow their kid’s area.  Is there a church where discipleship is taking off and people are growing in their faith?  Pair someone from that church to teach the pathway to the church that is implementing a program.

When churches cooperate together, the church up the street stops being an enemy of growth and starts being a friend in health. When resources are shared between churches, each church learns to trust and rely on the other, resulting in a much easier transition if one begins to decline and needs to look at an adoption or fostering process.  One area where this is happening successfully is the Lexington Baptist Association in South Carolina, led by Johnny Rumbaugh.  Johnny has worked with many churches in his association and others by offering a collaborative process by using transitional pastors.  You can hear more about his work on this episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast.)

Cohorts are another great way for AMSs to facilitate collaboration between churches.  We often use the phrase, “Don’t pastor alone.” This phrase is a key component for First Coast Churches, an association of churches in Jacksonville, Florida where the partnership between pastors and the association is strong and vibrant.  We don’t use this phrase because we want every church to have multiple pastors on staff.  We use it because when the storms of life hit, and they will, you NEED other pastors.  

Cohorts are small groups in which pastors can get together in a safe environment to talk about their struggles, their burdens, and to celebrate their “wins” together.  As an AMS, facilitating those discussions and providing a space for them can make all the difference for pastors who are struggling and on the verge of quitting.  You can engineer a bridge that brings pastors together when the waters get deep.

Another way AMSs can help create a collaboration of pastors is to “call out the called,” by assisting churches to create residency programs.  Small churches are a great place for men who have been called to the ministry to begin serving in that capacity.  Not only are you preparing them for ministry in a normative church, but the church itself benefits by having someone share the work.

AMSs can build a pipeline of pastors who are willing and ready to train others, hopefully with a variety of different gifts. As JimBo stated on the podcast, exposure to pastors and leaders with different gifts allows you to expand your learning and your experience. By building a residency program that utilizes multiple churches and multiple pastors, the association has now not only bridged a gap between pastors but has also given young men the opportunity to serve and to lead in the local church, especially by using these young men for pulpit supply. In Charlotte, North Carolina, Bob Lowman, at the Metrolina Baptist Association has worked alongside pastors in his area to form the City Residency Project to train and equip pastors who are called into ministry. Bob says, “We’re better together. The more we can come together and make this kind of effort, the more I believe we’ll see multiplication happen instead of addition.”

An Association of Comfort

There are going to be times when an AMS will need to provide comfort to a church in their area.  Consulting and crisis intervention are the next two “Cs.”  When an AMS learns that a church in their area is struggling, he can often provide a powerful resource to help… He can provide himself! 

One of the hardest parts of church revitalization and replanting is that churches don’t often realize they’re sick until they’re dying.  Churches need to have someone who can help them accurately diagnose their condition and get them the right treatment.  When an AMS learns that a pastor is leaving his church, the AMS can offer consulting to that church on their pastor search committee, asking them good questions to help them get a clear picture of their health. Not every church will accept this help, but for those who do, the advice and expertise of their local AMS can be invaluable!

Some churches in an association will face a crisis (or many crises)– in those difficult times, having an AMS who can help them walk through their next steps is critical.  The AMS can provide comfort to the church AND the pastor as they navigate exhausting and complicated situations.  The role of the AMS and the association is one of encouragement and reassurance that God has not forgotten them.

two men shaking hands

Celebrating a Beautiful Partnership

I began by telling two stories of unsuccessful and discouraging partnerships between local associations and the pastors they led.  Those stories are heartbreaking because everyone in them is discouraged and is missing out on a “match made in Heaven.”

I don’t mean that lightly– truly the partnership between an AMS and a pastor can be God-ordained and God-sent.  I have seen it to be true in my own life. When we went through our biggest struggle in ministry– one that had us questioning the very call to pastoring and made us feel like quitting– it was our friends and partners in ministry who pulled us back from the ledge.  Our friends were fellow pastors we met through cohorts and collaborations that were created within our local association.  The partnership we had with the local AMS reminded us that we had a network of relationships that supported us and kept us from walking away.  And in that time, our replant truly began to flourish.  If we had walked away we would have missed out on something incredible.

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12 states, “Two are better than one because they have a good reward for their toil.  For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow. But woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up! Again, if two lie together, they keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone? And though a man might prevail against one who is alone, two will withstand him—a threefold cord is not quickly broken.”

If you are an AMS, you likely have stories of great success where you have seen churches brought back to health through all of the efforts mentioned above.  When you have those stories, celebrate them!  Talk about cohorts that are developing leaders from leaders.  Talk about the pastoral pipeline that offered a struggling church new hope with a new pastor.  Bring pastors to your annual meeting to speak on a panel about the value of collaboration.  Have church members talk about the growth they experienced from joining another church in ministry.  These success stories are your testimony to the work that God is doing in and through your association and you!  As a ground-level partner in church health, your local knowledge and expertise are often the key to ensuring we all navigate these “Seven Cs” of church revitalization even in the most turbulent waters!

Resources:

One of the best resources for AMS leaders regarding replanting, renewal, and church health is the Annual AMS Lab in Atlanta.  This event will be held February 19th and 20th in Atlanta, Georgia.  We will update you with the speakers and registration as it opens!

We also have the Partnership Profile Tool and the Associational Replanting Guide as tools that you can use to assist you as you partner with replant churches in your area.  

And as always, the Replant Team is here to assist you! Leave us a comment and let us know how we can help you in this gritty and glorious work!

Leadership Capital

Through college and seminary, my wife and I jumped from rental to rental, often finding the cheapest, most functional places we could. We knew our stay was temporary, so we tried to find rentals with a 6-month lease. Until we finished up our degrees, we lived in a variety of homes. But after moving back to Florida and temporarily staying with family, we began to search for a home to purchase and live long-term.

The language of mortgage loans was frustrating for me, and I felt ill-equipped to understand it all. Underwriters and Realtors were helpful, but I wish I had more economical knowledge before running into barrier after barrier. I didn’t understand why it was difficult and time-consuming to be approved for a mortgage loan, until my underwriter explained it to me in a way I finally understood: “Caleb, this process is all about trust.” 

In order to be approved to pay back a loan, the bank has to establish trust with you, by evaluating your proof of income, history, employment, family, and other factors. At some point, they’re willing to approve your request, because you’ve had time to build that valuable trust with them. 

And in the same way a bank might approve your request after adequate time, you have to build trust with your church before making any major decision.

Trust-Building Takes Time

Whether you are a Replanter or Revitalization Pastor, every leader must learn how to build “Leadership Capital.” Think of Leadership Capital as stored influence you acquire over time, that you can access when you need to make leadership decisions. A tendency among new leaders is to come in, shake things up, and move quickly. You may desire to make “big changes,” to prove yourself as a leader or visionary. However, trust-building takes time, and leaders need to learn the art of building Leadership Capital. Leadership decisions must be made in great wisdom.

If you think of this illustration in financial terms, capital isn’t earned overnight. It is built over time. The rate of growth is equivalent to the time spent in earning. As a church leader, you would be hard-pressed to find a church whose members will do everything you desire the first time you ask, with no question. Church members want to know if the pitfalls, the possibilities, and the opportunities around them are worth the risk. A healthy leader will build trust with them first, before enacting major changes.

Some leadership decisions have to be done quickly. But decisions require capital, and time builds trust. Leaders normally start out with zero trust. Or, you may be building back trust that has been lost by former leadership. If a former pastor overspent their capital, it could have left the church in burnout with trust issues, and confused about how to trust a future leader. 

Important and Urgent

As a church leader, you must understand the importance of discerning between things that are important and things are urgent. John Ortberg says that leadership is, “Disappointing people at a rate they can absorb.” Most leadership decisions will be met with feedback, pushback, and accountability. So before making too many decisions at once, consider Eisenhower’s Matrix:

Dwight D. Eisenhower, the 34th president of the United States, once said, “The urgent are not important, and the important are never urgent.” This matrix has been a helpful resource for many leaders. It helps you schedule your time, manage your resources, delegate others, and get rid of the things that are wasting time. Tools like this are helpful for church leaders.

Often, I will be working on several projects simultaneously, and need to write out everything on a big white board. Then, I have to list out several priorities, and delegate whenever I possibly can. And yes, there are some things that I have to look at and take an eraser to, because they are not urgent, not important, and way too time-consuming. 

The main point of using a tool like this is to make leadership choices in wisdom and lead your people with effectiveness. Leaders will often experience a pace of change that is slower than what is expected. 

The Value of Trust

It is so easy to get frustrated with certain groups of church members because they aren’t moving as quickly as you want. However, each time you are eating a meal with a family, sitting in a classroom, praying with someone, or even giving some counsel about a mundane decision in someone’s life, you are building valuable trust with them. Finally, when you say, “Let’s start a new ministry to our community,” they will listen to the leader who has spent adequate time with them.

A helpful recognition is our lack of capital that we have to begin with, and how quickly it runs out. It takes time to demonstrate competency, character, and display commitment and consistency with people. It also takes time to build connections with people emotionally, so that your leadership will go a longer way and yield better results.

Don’t forget that once you decide to “use” some of your capital by making a big decision, you are responsible for organizing it in such a way that you establish healthy credibility with those around you. If you delegate, delegate with the right people, and make it the best you can. Plans made like this go a much longer way than we think.

When you love people well, listen well, pastor well, and establish credibility, you are building your capital, and you can feel a greater freedom to spend it when the timing is right. Some questions to ask yourself when making a decision is: “Which of these decisions will help our church move together more holistically towards church health? Are there any of these that are barriers to church health?”

For more information on leadership decisions, check out some of our previous podcasts on this topic:

 

The Works You Did At First (The Rise and Fall of Ephesus)

The Life Cycle of Ephesus

In the podcast this week, our team had the opportunity to have Kyle Bueermann as a guest. His thoughts on Discipleship in a Replant were helpful, and caused me to think about examples of some churches in the New Testament who neglected this important topic.

There are many churches mentioned in the New Testament that we don’t know much about. Even in Revelation, Jesus speaks directly to some churches that haven’t been introduced in Acts, and certainly don’t have their own epistles from Paul. Churches like Pergamum are noted in Revelation for holding fast to the name of Jesus and being faithful to the gospel, but we’re not sure of their history.

However, there is one Church in particular where we can see a majority of their life cycle. We know when the church was born, when they plateaued, and we can even see the church when it nears death. That church is Ephesus.

Birth, Growth, and Maturity

In AD 52, the Ephesian church was born. The first place we read about Ephesus is in Acts 18:19, where Paul begins planting gospel seeds in the synagogue and reasoning with the Jews. With the discipleship of Apollos and 12 new believers in Acts 19:1-7, this early church was born. Here are some characteristics of its first two years:

Evangelism

The birth and rapid growth of this church is nothing short of Spirit-led. The apostle spent three months persuading those in the synagogue about the Kingdom of God, and some of his disciples spent intentional time sharing the gospel in the hall of Tyrannus. And for two years, this church was responsible for spreading the gospel throughout most of Asia.

Ministry

The Holy Spirit was using Paul to heal the sick and cast out demons. His ministry was a public ministry, one in which people saw and recognized the hand of God. Because of this expulsion of darkness, Jesus’ name was extolled, evil practices were halted and repented of, and the word of the Lord continued to increase and prevail mightily  (Acts 19:17-20).

Public Theology

In the public square, the city of Ephesus was home to the great Artemis. But Paul was committed to the truth of God. A silversmith, Demetrius, admitted, “…in almost all of Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great many people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods.” What a testimony of reputation to the surrounding culture! Paul’s ministry of the word had caused quite the stir, and possibly potential persecution for the church. However, he held fast to the truth and did not waver. 

Leadership Development

Paul was also intentional in developing leaders. In his return through Macedonia, it lists a number of men who accompanied him: Sopater, Aristarchus and Secundus, Gaius, Timothy, Tychicus and Trophimus. Paul regularly identified leaders, trained them, and appointed them to positions within the church.

Intentional Discipleship

In more quiet and intimate times, Paul spoke to church members with words of encouragement and care. He spent intentional time with them, studying the word of God, conversing with them, and bidding them a long farewell.

Confidence in his Ministry

One of the last things we see about the growth and maturity stage of this church plant were the tender words Paul spoke to the elders of the Ephesian church during his departure. He notes that he served the Lord with all humility, tears, and trials. He did not shrink from declaring anything to them from teaching in public or from house to house. After giving an encouraging word to the pastors, he admonishes them to help the weak and to give sacrificially.

Plateau

Ten years later, Paul wrote a letter to the Ephesians. When it first started, the church in Ephesus was a vibrant, growing church focused on the ministry of the word and bold evangelism. But now, in AD 62, Paul needed to remind them of the gospel truth they believed, and he also needed to call out some potential warning signs.

Paul knew that if he did not make them aware of the potential pitfalls, it was possible that their church could decline and become unhealthy. During this letter, there is no clear indication that the Ephesian church was in any kind of serious trouble, but Paul felt the need to remind them of their peripateo seven times. He was reminding them to look carefully at their conduct in life.

A Plea for Love

We first see these warning signs when Paul “urges” them to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which they have been called. The way they must do this is by genuinely loving one another. This type of love must be shown through humility, gentleness, and patience. Bearing with one another meant that love must be the focus of this ten year-old church to stay in relation to one another. 

Striving for Unity

Paul also desires that they would not simply maintain, but that they would be eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace. He reminded them that there was one body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father. Paul knew that if this church was not eager to be unified, they would very quickly be vulnerable to the enemy.

Pressing on to Maturity

Another warning sign that Paul gives is the most clear indication of healthy discipleship: maturity. God’s people are supposed to grow, and Paul wants this church to remember that they are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ (Ephesians 4:15). If this church did not press on towards maturity, they would forget the reason for their work of ministry: discipleship. Their growth in the faith had to be something they continually longed for as a church body.

Putting Sin to Death

In chapter 4:17-32, Paul gives them a list of sins to flee from. Were these indicative in the early church? We aren’t sure to what extent, but Paul found it necessary to address these particular sins: sensuality, greed, falsehood, sins of the tongue, bitterness, wrath, anger, and sexual immorality. 

Getting Busy Again

Another point of responsibility for Paul to address is the issue of idleness. In other books, Paul warns against being lazy or idle in the Lord’s work. And in 5:15-17 he reminds the church of making the best use of their time. Alongside instructions to the family design, and cautioning them against spiritual warfare, Paul gives many general instructions or reminders to this church to remind them of what they should focus on in their present age.

Decline, Potential Death

Outside of a few other letters, the next time we really read about the Ephesian church is not from Luke, nor from Paul, but Jesus Christ himself in Revelation. Before the apostle John was taken up on a cloud of glory and shown glimpses of the kingdom of Heaven, Jesus had some words he wanted to share with seven churches. The first one mentioned is Ephesus.

This is 30 years later: potentially AD 95. At this point, the church is 50-60 years old, and much has happened in between Paul’s letter and Jesus’ letter. Apparently this church is commended because they are working hard, enduring until the return of Christ. They are even commended for their commitment to doctrinal purity. However, they’ve forgotten one major thing: they’ve forgotten their first love. 

The church that was the powerhouse for the word of God in the AD 50s had stopped loving Jesus. They cared more about doctrine than they did the object of that doctrine. And Jesus’ rebuke is solemn: “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”

When Jesus said, “do the works you did at first,” what did he mean? Jesus was encouraging them to do the ministry they were doing when they first became a church. They needed a renewed zeal. They couldn’t forget the reason why they first were preaching the gospel with such boldness: because they had been saved by Jesus. 

When a church forgets the basic, simple truths of the gospel, all the doctrinal purity in the world has lost its purpose. The point of theology is doxology. The reason we study is not simply to show ourselves approved, but to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). And this is why discipleship is so necessary to any type of Revitalizing work. 

Discipleship Has to be the Focus

In the podcast this week, Kyle Bueermann shared with the Replant Bootcamp about the necessity of discipleship in a Replant. If the Ephesian church was a church we started working with at the Association, they would be a church that had missed the first two windows of Revitalization. Even Jesus was close to removing the lampstand of the church. The lights would go off and the doors would close, because they were trying to do ministry void of a genuine love for Jesus.

We must not forget loving, growing, and maturing towards our relationship with Christ. If you are a church that is in danger of closing, my first encouragement to you would be this: start loving Jesus again. When that becomes the focus of the church, you begin to be more passionate about the gospel, and you start falling in love with your community again. But none of this is possible without an intentional focus of discipleship in your church. 

If you think your church is in danger of closing, take this church health assessment. This self-assessment is meant to help assist you in determining the current state of your local church. Another way to get started is by taking an introductory course that will help anyone understand what church replanting is and how it provides hope for dying churches.

Integrity in Leadership- Part Five of the Godly Leadership Series

stamped letters create the word integrity

This is part five of a series of five on the characteristics of Godly leaders. Part one, Humility, can be found here, Part two, Goodwill, can be found here, Part Three, Empathy, can be found here, and Part Four, Respect, can be found here.

For the past five weeks, we have studied the traits of a Godly leader and the qualities we must have to fulfill God’s calling. This week, we end the series with a characteristic that builds on the other four: Integrity.  Integrity is the direct result of having humility, goodwill, empathy, and respect for others– but without integrity, none of the others will do any good.

Failure to Stand

In structural engineering, one of the most important aspects of architecture and building is structural integrity.  Without it, a building can be destroyed if a disaster strikes.  

In Ancient Rome, an entrepreneur named Atilius set about to build a new amphitheater for patrons to watch gladiator competitions. Atilius was wealthy but opted for a quick and cheap construction.  At its completion in 27 AD, the Fidenae Amphiteater was set to hold 50,000 spectators– but due to its lack of structural integrity, the amphitheater collapsed under the weight, resulting in the deaths of over 20,000 people.  The integrity couldn’t support the demand.

As replant pastors, we must remember that a lack of integrity won’t show up in the good times of growth and revival.  As Carey Nieuwhof writes, “‘Normal’ doesn’t really test your integrity.   Crises do. But when a crisis comes, it’s often too late to fix what’s wrong. The damage is happening in real-time.” This is the problem with a lack of integrity– you won’t know you lack it until you need it.

building with crumbling foundation

Godly Integrity

Thankfully, God is not silent when it comes to this subject.  God’s word speaks directly to the topic of integrity so that we can remain “structurally intact” in times of crisis.

In Matthew 5:37, Jesus tells us, “Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.” In Proverbs 10:9, Solomon reminds us, “Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out. And again in Proverbs 11:3, we read, “The integrity of the upright guides them, but the crookedness of the treacherous destroys them.” Both Job and David are praised by God for their integrity and their uprightness. In Titus 2:6-8, Paul reminds Titus to “Show [himself] in all respects to be a model of good works, and in [his] teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say” about them.

Imperatives for Integrity

There are five imperatives to be a leader with integrity. When we look at these, we have to be willing to examine ourselves and see where we are lacking. Without that examination, we run the very real risk that the next crisis will be the one that exposes our weakness.

  1. Authenticity: As Bob pointed out on the podcast, this word may need a bit of reclamation. Often when someone says they are “being authentic” today, what they typically mean is that they are comfortable with their sin. There is a lack of conviction that allows them to sink to their base level, whether that means using foul language regularly or being too rude in their speech. At our core, we are sinful people, so if being “authentic” means that you aren’t allowing God’s conviction to change you, it’s time to remind yourself that you are still being sanctified. If we look at what it means to be “authentic” in the biblical sense, it means you can be “authenticated” as to your ownership.  When people walk away from their encounters with you, do they feel you represented Christ to them?  Can they tell that God is the author of your life? Is there evidence to show that you belong to Him? Are you marked by the fruits of the spirit listed in Galatians 5?
  2. Consistency: Maya Angelou has a great quote on consistency. She said, “When people show you who they are, believe them.” It really speaks to the idea that we need to accept what people show us through their behavior.  But the inverse is true, as well– we are showing our teams and our congregations who we are through our behavior, too.  If you are habitually late to meetings, what you’ve displayed is that you don’t value your team’s time.  If you consistently fail to respond to messages or to do what you say you will, then you’ve shown others that you aren’t dependable and they shouldn’t rely on you. When you act differently at your vocational job than you do in the pulpit, your reputation is tarnished and you seem inauthentic to others. A leader with integrity is consistent with his behavior.   
  3. Tell the truth: This seems self-explanatory, but a leader with integrity has to tell the truth.  Like our structural engineering example, if our foundation can’t be trusted, we will fall.  All of us have heard stories of pastors whose private life proved their public persona to be a lie.  While they preached a good Word, they lived a lie of infidelity and abuse. Lying erodes trust.  If you can’t be trusted to tell the truth, then you can’t be trusted to lead well. When you lie, you encourage other people to lie to you, as well. Telling the truth keeps you accountable to others.
  4. Seeks feedback: A leader with integrity is looking for ways to grow and change.  They never see themselves as the smartest person in the room, because they know that everyone has blind spots to things.  By definition, a blind spot is something you can’t see yourself, you must ask others to help you. Proverbs 12:1 tells us, “Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.” (Don’t get mad at me, God said it.) Leaders with integrity look for accountability.  I have a small circle of people that I trust to challenge me and help me grow.  Any one of those people have access and authority in my life to tell me when I’m headed in the wrong direction.
  5. Trustworthiness: If you look back at our journey through the five characteristics of Godly leaders and the five imperatives that go with each one, you will find that they all add up to this final character trait, being trustworthy.  Can your church trust you?  Can your spouse?  Can your team?  You may think immediately, yes, of course, but can I challenge you?  Ask them.  Ask them if they feel that you are trustworthy.  Do they feel that you have the integrity you need to withstand the strong winds and weight of a crisis?  Do they feel that they are safe with you as the leader?  (If they are too scared to answer the question, then they have answered the question.) 

trust and truth are spelled out in white blocks with black letters on them

Summing it Up

As we’ve studied the five characteristics of a Godly leader, we can see how each builds on the next. The fruit of godly leadership is best summed up by Ephesians 4:1-3. Paul says, “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness (goodwill toward others), with patience (empathy for others), bearing with one another in love (respecting others), eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit (integrity) in the bond of peace.” (ESV, italics mine) 

When we look at these traits, we may be quick to assume we are doing well in each of them.  But I encourage you to remember that a crisis for your church may only be one phone call away. There is too much to lose to take these imperatives lightly.  We are in a battle for eternity, and when the battle gets intense, will we be left standing?