JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] All

right. Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you’re ready for the next episode. Jack’s edition got you here in the bold city for a little

while,

Bob Bickford: the bold and the beautiful city. Yes, it’s great to be here and I’m thankful to come to Jacksonville because Hertz always treats me right. When I roll in here, I’ve got some giant QX Infinity 1010

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

The Infinity, they do the, all their models are letters and numbers and Yeah.

Bob Bickford: you know, I had a QX four Jimbo for a while and, give to my daughter and then it died of dusty death.

JimBo Stewart: Oh man. That’s sad. You

know, uh,

the num, the number letter models always makes you think of, have you, have you picked up on the pattern of Tesla models?

Bob Bickford: plaid

is

all, yeah,

JimBo Stewart: Plaid. is

like, that’s not necessarily one of the models. That’s a trim of

a model.

Okay.

It’s fastest car outta

the factory.

Yeah. No,

but if you pay attention Model

S.

Okay. Right.

And

he couldn’t get Model E. He wanted Model E, but that was already owned by another company. Okay. So he did model

three,

[00:01:00] he

did Model

X

and

then Model Y.

S

E X

Bob Bickford: y, and

then

he bought

Twitter,

JimBo Stewart: and then he

bought Twitter and all his money’s

gone.

Bob Bickford: So he’s actually, have you noticed, um, like again, and I, I, I am not as up on current events as probably a third of our boot campers are, but Twitter seems to be rebounding and, and making some good progress in the sense that, you know, all

the.

advertisers were supposed to leave when he kind of opened

up

the platform.

Mm-hmm. . And now it seems like, at least according to his tweets,

they’re

all

coming

back.

JimBo Stewart: Okay. All right. Well, you know, if

it’s

on Twitter,

you know

it’s

true. ?

Bob Bickford: Yes.

JimBo Stewart: Oh,

I wish that

were true.

hey, speaking of things that aren’t always true and how we perceive things and, you know, starting a new venture like Twitter.

and how well that vision is adopted or received. I wanted to do a follow up [00:02:00] episode today, Bob. We’ve talked before about the emotional cycle

of change,

which I do think is a very helpful tool in research as we go through any sort of change. But one of

the things

that occurred

to me

is,

the beginning, the assumed starting point of the emotional cycle of change is uninformed.

Optimism. So you’re starting out at I like this idea and where

we’re going

and I’m pumped about it. I don’t really know what

it means,

but I

think

it’s great.

Which is not always where you

start

with

everybody.

Bob Bickford: Yeah.

In a

replant.

Yeah. Jimbo, I, I have a lot of uninformed optimism when I used to go to

water

parks.

JimBo Stewart: Oh, okay.

Okay.

Bob Bickford: You know, water parks where you’re, it’s a hot day and you think. , man, I’m gonna, I’m, I’m, this is gonna be feel really good and it’s gonna be great. And then Jimbo, you go to the water park and then you

see

humanity.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And then you

have informed

pessimism.

Bob Bickford: Yes. . And then you look at the water and what’s in the water.

And [00:03:00] Jimbo, it just looks like a soup of humanity. Yeah. And then I go

into

the

pit of

despair. .

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

Then you’re in the

valley

of despair, ,

and you

gotta

push through

the

vision.

why

are

you

there?

Right?

Yeah. And If

you don’t have a good

Bob Bickford: reason,

That’s

my

vision.

I’m outta here.

JimBo Stewart: Worst, worst experience I ever had at a water park was with my oldest son,

and

I

think it was his,

10th birthday

or something

like

that.

All And

I

took

him and,

 my wife is very clear. Do not let him get sunburns. I have ginger babies. We burn very easily. and so

I took spray

sunscreen, and I was like, all right,

I

didn’t

bring

any

other

kind

of

sunscreen,

Bob Bickford: oh

no.

Close

your

JimBo Stewart: eyes

real

tight. Oh,

no.

I

spray

his

face,

his,

he

started crying so bad.

He, he

tried, he

really tried to put on a brave face and, and just like pushed through. But it was, it was

pretty

rough.

It, it didn’t go well.

Bob Bickford: How’s he doing with

the loss

of

eyesight these

days?

JimBo Stewart: I

think he’s recovered.

Uh,

it,

it took a [00:04:00] little while. He

did

get

sted and eye infections. Every

once

in a while.

May

or

may not

be related. I

don’t

know. But, uh, it wasn’t

a good, it

wasn’t a good run.

so here’s the thing that the, the emotional cycle change. Go back and listen to that episode. we actually

recently

had

a

blog episode on that.

Yeah. A blog,

not

episode, blog,

post

It was

really good.

but

there’s another piece to this

and

it’s

really

the organization as

a

whole.

And, And,

so

I

wanted

to add

another tool

to that

convers.

called

the Vision Adoption Cycle. This originally came from a book by

Jeffrey Moore

called Crossing the Chasm, which is really about marketing, and selling

disruptive products,

in mainstream

to mainstream customers.

And so the idea

behind

the original work.

is.

when you come out with a

disruptive new

technology, even

specifically, there’s gonna be some people who are gonna jump on real quick just cuz they like technology, they like new things,

they want

to have the newest

one. Even if there’s

bugs in it, they’re fine with that.

That’s

an

easy

market

to

[00:05:00] sell to.

But

if

you

wanna have a sustainable, income for your company, you’re gonna have to figure out how to move from

those

kind of

early innovators,

early

adapters to some middle adopters, kind of the middle of the road

guys

who need

to

see

some evidence

to really believe. So the

whole

book

is

this

idea of

that chasm between those early adopters and

middle

adopters.

And

how

do

you jump that chasm?

Well,

after

that

was

Aubrey

Malice,

wrote

a church kind of version of this in, into a book called Pouring New Wine into Old Wine Skins and Adapted.

That’s How

to Change a Church

without Destroying

It. It’s actually a really good book.

There’s some great

information on change leadership

in there.

And then our

buddy Rob Peters has then, who is a, who is

discipled mentored

by Aubrey

Mouthers, has adopted that into his refocus process a little bit.

So I

wanna

get some

information

from both of

those.

Just talk

about

how

when you get into a church, you are excited, you’re at the top of

the emotional cycle

of change.

You’re

at

uninformed optimism,

and

you

might [00:06:00] have some early adopters with you, some innovators, early adopters that are super excited about it,

but in

a replant,

chances are

you.

Right. Chances are, unless those are being transplanted into

the replant

from a mother sponsored church, right? So if you have a, this is

another good reason

to

have a mother sponsored church that would provide

some people

that are

actually very excited.

Or you might reach

some young

families real quick

cuz

they

hear

the vision

and the

excitement.

But

then you

inevitably end

up,

and

this. ,

this

tool doesn’t

really address this necessarily. but you inevitably, if you do that and they’re transplanted, they’re

not

from

there, they’re not part of

the legacy

of that

church.

You, one of the things you gotta be mindful of is you kind of, you, the chasm

you

gotta

cross

there is,

there’s a divide between

what

can

feel like

two different

congregations.

Bob Bickford: Yeah. It’s an us and them. I, I remember when we replanted Jimbo, we had a few folks that heard about what we were doing and they decided to come over and

help.

and be a part of it. And it, it did turn into a real us and them, and

[00:07:00] we tried our best in so many ways

to.

To break down those barriers. We did this thing called dinners of eight, where we mixed everybody up and they did dinner in homes and we said, you know, I remember saying for the first year after the worship service, Hey, we know you guys are gonna eat lunch.

Here’s what we recommend. Find somebody

you don’t

know

and go out to lunch

with.

Yeah. And here’s the problem. All of my old folks wanted

to go to

Miss Sherry’s cafe,

and

all my young families had to get their kids home so they wouldn’t lose their minds. Right. And

put ‘

JimBo Stewart: em

Bob Bickford: bed.

Right.

So good idea. Mm-hmm.

JimBo Stewart: we just

couldn’t

make

that

happen

on

a

regular Yeah.

Well,

so keep in mind that that’s, that’s something you’re gonna be dealing with is you might have that

to deal with.

That’s another, maybe a topic for another podcast to go into deeper, but just let’s imagine you have some people jumping on and you’re trying to

get everybody

else to jump on as well.

Well know that the Rod Peter says

the vision

adoption process is never a straight line. Vision

adoption feels

more

like a

roller coaster than a

straight line.

and so this is part of [00:08:00] what we’re

talking

about

and I think

this contributes a little bit

to.

We’ve

always

talked

about kind

of somewhere

around

year three.

Mm-hmm. is when things,

it feels

like the

wheels

fall off. And when

we first started

talking about that, you know, me, I’m a, I’m

a patterns guy

and I’m always trying to find what are

the

behavioral patterns. And I initially, when I was looking at that, everybody

I

would talk

to,

I was

looking at the circumstances, what were the circumstances of why the wheels were

falling.

And,

and it,

there was no consistency,

right? I

mean,

it was all

over the map.

and so there was

no

pattern there other

than something happened.

And

it would, it

would be seemingly unique

in

like, well,

no, just

our

year three happened

to be

when Covid hit, our year three happened to be when, for us,

the

first Trump election and the political divide that, that created in the country.

And, and certainly those can contribute when those types of things fall

in. But there is something to

this

like year three

mark,

somewhere

in

that where

it

really

seems like

the

wheels

fall off.

Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think so. You know, a lot of people talk about the honeymoon phase, and I don’t know how long your [00:09:00] honeymoon phase was.

Mine

was

like three months maybe. And so oftentimes

people

say

it

could last

up

to a year.

Mm-hmm. .

And then

some pastors who have done turnarounds or realizations or replants say, Hey, as much as you can, unless

something

is

on fire and is broken and destructive, try not to change things.

Great. until you’ve been there a year.

Get some trust, pastor people, get to know the people, love them, visit them, et cetera. So that second year then is all about starting to test the vision of, mm-hmm. , okay, I’ve been here with you for a year. Here’s what I see are some things that need some attention. And then in year three, it’s really trying to launch into

that vision

and create change.

And so I

think

that’s,

that may

be a common

pattern.

Yeah. Or a, frequent

pattern.

So you might find yourself, at

year three

fighting

the real

battle of change that really began.

Sometime

during year one, but you publicly didn’t say

it. So like

you think about [00:10:00] Nehemiah. Mm-hmm. , he just didn’t roll into town and tell everybody

what he’s gonna do.

What’d he do? Well, he got on the horse in the middle of the night and didn’t really have anybody with him, and he rode around and saw, surveyed the city and saw all the things that needed to be done. Then he comes back and cast vision and because the Lord was with him and because the Lord moved in into people’s hearts, then they, they rose and they build, built the walls back.

Right. But this shows you, there’s this

progression

about.

 Sensing and seeking the vision, having that, holy discontent

that

we’ve

talked about before. So, and then slowly moving towards casting the vision and then implementing the vision. And most of the guys, I think culturally, and maybe this is just for us, in, in

our

church, unless in our churches in

North America,

declining churches

that

have a lot

of money

in the bank,

don’t

have a lot

of urgency.

Yeah. And so the change process

is

gonna be

impacted

by

that,

and

it’s

gonna

take

some time.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. It’s, such a hard thing to get people on board to change something. like this. And so I think it’s just helpful to know that not only

are you gonna have

an emotional cycle, but there’s gonna be kind of [00:11:00] an adoption

cycle, a

process

to

everything that you’re doing.

And, and you might get some early adopters, early innovators, whether that be through transplants, young families that join people that hear about

what you’re

doing. And know

that

that’s gonna be

a pretty

small percentage of the people, unless you do some sort of campus model

where

you’re transplanting

a ton

of people.

Right,

right. Which is why I think we see a higher rate of success,

in,

long term

with those.

Cuz you’re,

you’re, the large

percentage of the

people

are

already on board with division. Chances are usually two to

3%.

and so, Albert Malford says

The early innovators,

kinda the earliest piece, make up approximately two to 3%

of most established

congregations and that the

early

adapters, which would be that next one, and we’ll have some

of this in

the show

notes, early adapters make up eight to 18% of

the church,

and they’ve grown tired of the established quo because

they’ve watched

it sap

the church

out

of

its

vitality.

but

that’s

probably somewhere

in the beginning of decline, starting decline stage. By the

time

a

church needs

to

be

[00:12:00] replanted,

those

people

have

probably

left

mm-hmm. ,

which

is

why

you

gotta

bring ‘

em

back in. And,

and so,

Aubrey b has

a key

church revitalization principle is to recruit as many. Active vocal allies

as

possible for your program of change

before

you

introduce

it

to

the congregation.

The change agent should seek out the early adopters as his allies

and

rally them behind his programs

and proposals.

So my caveat in replanting I would give

to

this is

if

those

aren’t legacy

people, be careful of letting

them always

be

the voice.

So I would say

even

if,

if

you’re replanting.

if

your early

adopters are

all transplants,

work

as hard as

you can

to get some from within the legacy

congregation, cuz

that’s the voice that

they

really

need to hear.

Bob Bickford: Absolutely. The, the first group particularly depends on how you get to the church that’s being revitalized or, or needing to be replanted. If there’s a traditional pastoral surge committee that in Unity in unison said, [00:13:00] Hey, we want this guy, what I would suggest is keeping them.

As a group and as a team in spending time with them, as well as unfolding maybe some folks that have supported you or that, that would, want to help support you in the new work that have come from the outside. I did that with our search committee. I, didn’t have a committee that I could work with as a pastor.

Most bylaws say Jimbo, that a pastor is an ex officio member of every committee. Mm-hmm. . So that means he has to attend every meeting, but he doesn’t get to vote. Yeah. And he doesn’t get to set the

agenda.

How crazy. Is that

in terms

of form

of leadership and governance, right? Yeah.

So

given that, one of the things I did was I said to the pastor search team, I want you guys to stay on board.

I want you to transition to the pastor liaison team, and I want us to meet together on a regular basis to make recommendations to the church for change. Right. So that’s good. So I would suggest if you can do that, if you’re just now going to a church, do that it, and if you are struggling to find those early [00:14:00] adopters who want to be on board with you, man, I, I think your, your advice, Jimbo is sage.

You gotta find some positive voices for change. Yeah. Because typically in a declining church,

you’re

gonna

have a

lot more

folks

who

are

resistant

to

change.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I would say if, you

know,

if this

all came

from a document called Crossing the

Chasm, assuming

that

you have early

adopters, I would just say

you probably have a wider chasm if you don’t have early adopters, and you’re

gonna

have to

figure

out how

to win over the middle adopters.

Now,

if

you have some early adopters

and they

can

help

you

win middle adopters,

that’s awesome.

Rob Peter says The middle adopters are receptive to the new vision, but they need questions

answered before they can get on board. the need for information by the middle adopters makes year two of the vision

adoption process.

more

difficult

than

year

one.

Mm-hmm. ,

cuz

they’re

just

a slower

process.

They need more information

and

so you

may have to spend,

not

may, you will have to spend more

time

answering questions

than you probably

thought.

Bob Bickford: Jimbo,

I married

a

middle

to [00:15:00] late

adopter.

And so if we’re thinking

of

any

kind of,

Thing,

initiative.

purchase, even

adopting our new dog, Dax, who we welcomed into the family mid,

mid-December.

Barb

had a

lot of questions.

Mm-hmm. , and she’s learned that, there’s a way that we can process those and so, she’ll say something like, so what you’re thinking is, and then she’ll kind of give her perspective on what she thinks that I’m thinking. And when that matches up and perfectly aligns, it’s great.

Yeah. When

it’s

divergent from

when when I’m actually

thinking

Jimbo ,

it gets

a little more tense. Right. So, so we live that out normally in our own lives, when typically the Lord sometimes will match us with somebody who’s on the different side

of

the scale.

And

so when you think about your

leadership

in the church, ,

you

need to think about it in the sense of, I’m gonna have to explain and explain and explain again.

And also I’m likely gonna have to deal with questions [00:16:00] underneath

the question.

And the question underneath

the question

is the,

the

fear question. Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. , how’s this gonna change? Right. What

is he,

is

he telling me? This is like when you went into the,

car dealership, sales office, and here’s what I’m telling you, but here’s what I really mean down here, , right?

So it’s like

we’ve gotta,

we’ve gotta have a full conversation and I’ve gotta spend enough time to make sure that

what

I’m conveying

doesn’t

look

like a

shady

car salesman.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, yeah.

I mean

they, so middle adopters need evidence, right? They need their questions answered,

they

need

information, education, and then they kind of

need to. see, , then

it works.

Which

if you, again, if you don’t have

early

adopters with you, it’s, it’s gonna take you a long time to get that evidence.

It’s really,

this is why

you have

to

have

initiative.

This

is gonna

be on you, to try

to win

those middle adopters over.

And

if

you

don’t

have

any

early,

this

is

where

you start

with

your middle adopters

and

then you

get

to

the late

adopters.

And, Aubrey Malford says, the late adopters are the last

in

the [00:17:00] church

to

endorse

a new idea

or program of change.

While

they

may never acknowledge it, verbal.

They

will fall in line

with

the direction

of the majority or the middle adopters. And

so the

idea here is

if

you can

win over,

if you have early adopters and you can win over middle adopters, then

your

late adopters will eventually.

come

in.

Now. One

of the things

that

it

often requires,

if you look at some of the think ways that, Rob

Petersons has laid

this out, is while the middle adopters need

education,

the

late

adopters,

there

has

to

be

something

emotional.

that changes for them. They

have

to

see

enough

of

the

success,

Of

your

leadership

of

the vision

change

of something

hit their personal life.

So

they gotta

see their granddaughter

get saved.

They gotta

see their

grandson break an addiction, or they’ve gotta see you walk them through grief and show

that you

love them and you shepherd them well,

and

you value

them

as you

shepherd

them [00:18:00] through

some sort of hard

time.

But at some point, the, the evidence isn’t, is not necessarily what’s gonna win them over as much as some sort of emotional connection to you as a leader or emotional connection

to

the

results

of

the

new

vision

of the church.

Bob Bickford: Yeah,

it

makes me think

of three bees.

Babies.

JimBo Stewart: Babies,

Bob Bickford: budget

receipts.

And baptisms.

So

if your

church hasn’t had any babies

and

all

of

a

sudden you

remodel the nursery,

throw away

all

the

d.

wooden toys,

and you

start

having babies

come

in.

and your young families who came to help you do the replant, start having babies, man, that will, that’s like putting gas on the fire.

People are excited about that cuz they, everybody loves a new baby. Right? And budget receipts. If, if you’re reaching people and you start seeing people come in and people start giving towards the, the, the mission and the vision and, and the needs, right? I had, a patriarch of the church who told me one time, he said, here’s, here’s my suggestion to you.

He said, always have

something.

[00:19:00] that you can share

with

us,

that we

can give towards

mm-hmm. , right? And so I was like, that’s great advice, right? So we, we’d raised some money, one time we cast a vision for a new, mother’s room now, where we could bring the service from upstairs down into the, basement of our church.

Kind of a separate fellowship upon, so, , we cast a vision for that Jimbo in a, in a church B, family meeting, members meeting. And we got the budget. We had somebody pay for it right then and there. Like they came up

to me

after

the meeting and said,

how much

do

you

need?

We’ll

write the check.

Amazing.

And then

baptisms.

What?

Baptist doesn’t love baptisms. Only an unregenerate, cranky Baptist .

Yeah. Who’s

not really a Baptist, right? So we love baptism. You love celebrating and seeing people get saved. I mean, you talked about the granddaughter, you talked about the, the son who’s, you know, broken addictions, all those sorts of things.

Life

change

really

helps

create

a flywheel of change

in the

congregation.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Talking about, the late adopters specifically

as it ties

to

year three, Rob Peter says year three is [00:20:00] typically more difficult as the late

adopters,

are

grieving as they realize

what they

must give up in order to

move.

they’re filled with emotions and usually the pastor

and the

other

key

leaders

will need

to

engage these often intense

emotions so the late adopters can cross over from being resistant to

becoming

a participant

in

the vision.

But

something

has

to

change

emotionally. Mm-hmm. for them. There’s, there’s something’s gonna have to make a shift emotionally.

and so

you gotta

be

willing

to shepherd those strong emotions

that they have

and understand that that is not necessarily, that they are,

they’re

not anti adopters.

That’s another

group

we’re gonna get to here in

a second.

They’re just late adopters and there’s

no,

there

is

let them process

the grief.

There’s real grief to what they’re losing

as

things

are

changing

and,

and

you

need

to

be

wise

enough

to

shepherd

that

with

some

gentleness.

Bob Bickford: One

of the. Impactful conversations I had during that early season of our church in the process of replanting was from one of the [00:21:00] founder’s daughters who was a baby in the nursery,

and she came up to the church.

So gracious, such a kind lady, and she said to me, she

said, I, I

just, I think I want to say something to you to help you understand what those of us who’ve been around here

are

feeling.

She said,

when we

pull

up

in

the parking,

and we look

at

the building.

It’s

the same church

that

we’ve always known,

but then

when we walk inside the

building,

it

looks nothing like

the church

that

we knew.

Yeah.

And

her honesty.

Mm-hmm.

in giving me her perspective, Jimbo, it really was a huge impact for me. Just to understand, I have to be gracious with these folks because I think most re planters and revitalizes drive into the parking.

Walk into the building, listen to the worship music and go, this is nothing like the church I want

to

pastor, and nothing like

the church

I would want to attend.

Yeah.

I’ve gotta put it in fifth gear and put the gas down and make it like [00:22:00] I have a vision for it

as

soon as I po possibly can. Yeah. But the problem is

you,

you could

be

really

digging

a

hole

underneath

the

foundation

of

the

church

and

not

realize

it

until

it’s

too late.

JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. It’s, it’s takes such patience, tactical, patience, and

wisdom.

And

gentleness

to shepherd

this kind of change. And

after

the late

adopters,

you

do

have

usually

never

adopters.

And then you

have anti adopters.

and this is

gonna

be,

uh,

you know,

a different

percentage.

This

is,

Never

adopters are

gonna

be 10

to 15%,

usually

of

an established

congregation.

That might be a larger percentage, I

would

assume,

in a replant.

and

then

the

anti adopters, are, are gonna be two to

5%.

and again,

that

might be

a

little

larger

that’s in

an established

congregation, but

Rob,

Peter,

The never

adopters

and the

anti

adopters

are

resistant to

the end.

The

never

adopters

will silently object

and

the anti

adopters

will be

the vocal opposition.

It’s

important for

the pastors

and

lay leaders to [00:23:00] engage both groups.

The never adopters

must understand that

the

vision will

be

embraced. They’ve been outvoted. The anti adopters must be specifically challenged, possibly even disciplined

in order

to beat back their opposition. If

the

anti-D adopters

are not

adequately

challenged,

they will recruit the never

adopters

and

then

they

become

a

force

that

has

potential to

undermine

all

the

church

revitalization efforts.

Bob Bickford: Yeah. There, there’s your three quarters super majority, right? Yeah. There and it’s, and sometimes jimbo’s, not even the three quarters. Super majority because I’ve seen church partnerships and church replant. prospects fail because of

a couple

of votes,

seven votes.

where they just never are able

to cross

that line.

The smaller the congregation,

the

more difficult

it is

to get

a super

majority. Yeah. Right. Because it only can take just a, a handful, a small handful of folks to shoot down the plans for church renewal. So man, be wise in how you work

with

the,

never adopters

and

the

[00:24:00] anti adopters.

And then I would

say

this. ,

you

probably will

have to

do

some church discipline at some point.

Yeah, yeah.

Maybe it’s informal. Hopefully

maybe

it will have to come before the entire church. But what I would say is, pastor, know your

bylaws.

Know

the scriptures

and then

be

equipping all along in maybe year one and two.

If you have to get to this year three, and this all occurs in year three, be ready to, to do the loving thing. To ask people to get on board or

to

lovingly

ask

them to

go

somewhere

where

they

feel like

they

can

be

on

board.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

It’s

the difference.

And

we

gotta

be careful

here. Church discipline

is

necessary for anti adopters,

whereas

never

adopters

are

gonna

be frustrated

and

they

might

grumble

a

little

bit,

but they’re

probably. they’re

either not

going anywhere

or

they’ll silently

go somewhere. They’ll just ghost you.

Uh, there was a lady in our

church that

had

a blanket

that

saved

her spot,

and

and literally about

every

few

months

it

would

move

back a few

or

Bob Bickford: Oh,

JimBo Stewart: Oh,

Bob Bickford: And [00:25:00]

JimBo Stewart: Until

eventually

she

was

gone.

just

outta

the

building.

She

just left,

like the

blanket

Bob Bickford: was

gone.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

No,

no.

Her

like,

just

like

it

was

her

sl. I, I

really think

it

was

her

slowly leaving

our

church. Wow.

Like it, she was like the, started like

the third

row.

After

about a year,

it was like

the

fifth row, and then

it would

move to

the

sixth or seventh row.

And,

and then

like towards

the

end

of her time

there

it

was,

she

was

sitting

on

the

back

row

and

and then

eventually

she

left.

She

went

to

another

church

quietly.

She

didn’t

make

a

big

deal.

She

just

left.

But

she

left

the

blanket?

No,

she

took

it.

with her. Okay. She took the

blanket

with her and she

left

the

church.

Alright. that’s

a,

that’s

a

never

adopter.

Yeah.

An

anti

adopt.

is someone

who’s going to

be vocally and actively creating dis division disunity. They might even be gossiping and spreading rumors

that aren’t

true.

I mean,

and

at

that

point

is where you

have

to

consider,

has

this gotten

to a

point of

church

discipline

being

necessary?

Bob Bickford: Yeah, totally agree. My and my earlier comments were really meant towards that end. And I, I think we did, we had to do that, Jimbo, we had, [00:26:00] we had, someone who wrote anonymous letter

and mailed

it to

everybody in

the church.

Hmm. And and then we had an another key leader and his wife who had a.

Secret Sunday school meeting. Wow. In, in their home. And, we, and they were spreading things that were not true and saying things that were not true about our leaders and me and where we were headed and all those sorts of things. And so we had to do the,

the

first, very first ever done church discipline,

action in our church.

And after we did all that and they said they were gonna leave the church, we didn’t kick ’em out. They, they resigned their membership and they said they were gonna leave

the.

After we told that to the church on a Sunday morning, we

brought

everybody together and explained what

was going on.

So many

people

came

up after that

very

difficult meeting

and

said,

this

should

have

been done a long

time ago.

Mm. And so I would say to the re planters and, and revitalizes and renewal pastors out there,

if you’re concerned

about

church discipline,

and you’re fearful

of doing

it,

man,

don’t be because

it’s

biblical. ,

[00:27:00] it’s

in the bylaws

and

it

probably

needs to

be done

for

the

health

of

the

congregation.

JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. Hey guys, thanks for joining us in this conversation about, the vision

adoption cycle

and

how to

shepherd

through

that.

We’d love to hear your

feedback,

your

questions,

in regards to this.

Have

a

good

day.