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EP 233 – Effective Interim Pastors: Fearing God more than Man with Scott Catoe

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EP 233 - Effective Interim Pastors: Fearing God more than Man with Scott Catoe
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In this episode, we welcome Scott Catoe, a first-time guest but longtime friend of the podcast, who shares his experiences and insights from serving as the lead pastor at Slater Baptist Church for 10 years and his current role as the Associate Mission Strategist for the Three Rivers Baptist Association. Dr. Catoe discusses his book, ‘Effective Interim Pastors,’ which emerged from his doctoral research on interim pastors.

He highlights the importance of addressing sin, and conflicts, and shaping a healthy church culture through the period of interim ministry rather than avoiding disruption. The conversation emphasizes the tendency of interim pastors and long-term pastors alike to either fear man more than God or seek personal glorification in ministry, contrasting these with the gospel-centered approach required for impactful leadership.

The book outlines eight principles for effective interim pastors, urging a focus on biblical faithfulness, prayer, confronting sin, and equipping the congregation for future growth, all rooted in a deep reverence for God over the fear of man.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:17 Guest’s Background and Current Role
01:07 Discussion on Normative Size Churches
01:45 Revitalization and Replanting Churches
02:08 Introduction to the Book ‘Effective Interim Pastors’
02:41 The Need for Transitional Pastors
03:51 The Role of an Interim Pastor
05:45 The Importance of Addressing Sin in Churches
11:07 The Fear of Man and Hero Syndrome in Ministry
17:16 The Role of Decision-Making in Churches
25:22 Conclusion and Book Recommendation

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The Power of Partnership

A few weeks ago, my husband Will and I attended the AMS Lab from NAMB in Atlanta, Georgia.  Hundreds of pastors and AMS leaders from across the country gathered together to learn more about partnerships and collaboration in revitalizing dying churches.  We listened to several leaders discuss ways their associations and churches had worked cohesively for the spread of the Gospel and each other’s benefit.  We heard testimonies of how these collaborations bore the fruit of faithfulness, health, repentance, and revival. The message was clear: There is power in partnership.

In Genesis 2:18, we read that God formed Man and then came to an important realization: “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”  Now, we know that God then formed Woman and declared it “very good.” But the main idea was not merely for man and woman to be in partnership together– the main thought is that it is not good for man to be alone.  Over and over in God’s Word, He reminds us that collaboration is better than alienation

We often remind our congregations that God has formed our church like a body, quoting from 1 Corinthians and Ephesians.  We tell them that we all need each other, we all have different gifts, and that we all benefit from our unity.  And yet when it comes to churches partnering with other churches, many pastors neglect to foster and encourage partnership in their ministries.

On a recent episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast, Jimbo talked with Mark Hallock, author and Lead Pastor of the Calvary Family of Churches in Colorado, and Brandon Moore, Replant Specialist at NAMB, about the benefits of radical collaboration.  When we partner together, ministries flourish, churches come back from the dead, and pastors are strengthened.  On His way to the cross, Jesus prayed that the church’s unity and partnership would display God’s plan and His love for the world to see (John 17:23). 

God’s Command to Partner

Here is the truth of the matter.  Pastors who neglect to partner with other churches are working against God’s plan for the Gospel.  You might not realize it, but God desires us to be in close collaboration with other churches– not competition.  Too often, we get wrapped up in the human desire to grow our personal kingdom and not God’s.  

Of course, that’s not the language we use.  Pastors would never say they desire their kingdom to grow over God’s.  But when we hoard our resources for our gain, when we disparage the church across town (especially from the pulpit), and when we isolate ourselves from other pastors, we’ve created a “my church, my growth” mindset instead of a “God’s church, His kingdom” mindset.

God commands us to work in unity with other churches.  Our passion must be for God’s Kingdom to grow, because His plan is to reach the lost world through people– not only your church but mine, too.  His plan is for all of us to cooperate so that His name is magnified throughout the nations.

Where do I start?

At the AMS Lab, one of the phrases we heard from pastors and AMS Leaders was, “Partnership sounds great, but we don’t have that mindset in our association.  No one seems to want to share or to cooperate.” What a missed opportunity!

When pastors alienate themselves and build walls around their ministry, it typically signifies an area of personal weakness.  Maybe they’ve been hurt by other pastors in the past and they are hesitant to be vulnerable again.  Perhaps they are afraid to be transparent or admit that something isn’t working.  Or maybe it’s just good, old-fashioned pride that makes them feel like they don’t have anything to learn from someone else.  Regardless of the root issue, a pastor who “Lone Rangers” his ministry may need to evaluate his behavior and repent.

Often, one of the first steps toward collaboration is one of embracing humility. It’s one thing to agree we need pastoral friendships for encouragement, but it’s quite another to be willing to share resources like money, time, and leadership with fellow pastors.  It’s one thing to say, “I’m willing to help the church down the street,” but it’s different to say, “I don’t care who gets the credit, I just want to see God’s Kingdom grow.”  Humility offers us a chance to let go of our ego and step out of the picture, and it allows God to step in and do radically transformative work in both our congregation and in the other church.  Laying down our pride for the Gospel reaps fruit we can’t even begin to imagine.

Once we’ve embraced the command to partner with fellow pastors and churches, and we’ve repented of any pride or fear standing in our way, it’s time to lean in and pursue partnership.  Now I wish this was as easy as simply passing a note to another pastor at the next Association meeting that says, “Do you want to partner with me in ministry? Check yes or no.”  Unfortunately, radical collaboration takes a little more time and effort! 

To start with, you need to actually attend association meetings.  Those meetings aren’t merely to give you information and discuss everyone’s budget and church attendance numbers.  Those meetings are opportunities for networking with other pastors and for encouraging each other! You have something to learn from them.  The Holy Spirit indwells them just as He indwells you!  God has given them unique perspectives, experiences, and giftings that can benefit you, even if they are different than yours. 

Being a good partner in ministry means being a good friend.  When you’re at the meetings, ask good questions of your fellow pastors.  Pray over their churches.  Have someone from your church send them a card to encourage them.  Some of our best partnerships have come from having close friends in ministry.  Last year when we were gone on a mission trip, we needed help with our worship service– we were short a pastor and a worship leader.  We were able to call our best friends in ministry and ask for their help– and they sent a worship team over to lead our service, even though it meant their church struggled a little that morning.  Why?  Because we aren’t in competition, we’re in cooperation.

Maybe not everyone will understand your desire for partnership.  That’s ok. Start with a few guys who do.  Plan a night of worship and combine your campuses. Look for ways your church can help with their VBS (or vice versa).  Do you have a couple of talented musicians while their church struggles to have live music? Ask one of your people to serve there a couple of weeks a month. Not because you don’t love your church and your people, but because you’ve taught your church to love other churches. And before you know it, a funny thing happens when other people see radical partnership thriving… they’ll want to join, too.  That’s where you see the culture change.  That’s where the goal of “church growth” becomes “Kingdom growth.”

The Superpower of Partnership

Hopefully, by now you’ve realized that we need to partner with fellow churches for one very good reason: God commands us to!  But partnership isn’t merely a rule to follow.  Radical collaboration is a superpower.  Once we tap into it, the benefits to our ministry and our personal walk with Jesus are huge!

One of the main benefits of partnership?  We are better together! Ecclesiastes 4:9-10 reminds us, “Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor: If either of them falls down, one can help the other up.  But pity anyone who falls and has no one to help them up.”  There will always be times when ministry is a struggle.  I have a friend who swears her husband quits ministry every Monday morning.  Discouragement, disappointment, and feelings of frustration with church members or church politics can feel overwhelming.  But partnerships with other churches mean your problems aren’t just your own to solve.  You have helpers to pick you up and raise your arms, as Aaron and Hur did for Moses (Exodus 17).

Another benefit?  Faithfulness in the ministry. A recent Barna study found that 65% of pastors reported feeling isolated or alone in 2022… that’s up from only 42% feeling that way in 2015. It seems many pastors are feeling like Johnny Cash when he sang, “I’ve got no one to tell my troubles to, no one to care to call my own. It seems that I must always be alone.” And when pastors feel isolated, they are more susceptible to temptation, hip-shot decisions, and leaving the ministry altogether. When you partner with other pastors, you have built-in encouragement, but you also have built-in accountability.  Your partners are also pastors who can tell you, in humility and love, where you might be going off-track.

Lastly, there is the benefit of having a cohort to help you navigate the complexities in the culture and society we face today.  We are dealing with aspects of culture that society has not wrestled with before and in our digital and technologically advanced society, these complex questions do not stop at the church’s front door.  Increasingly, these cultural issues are encouraging pastors to take a new look at their by-laws, their polity, and even their own personal beliefs. Having other pastors beside you as you walk through these decisions gives you a plurality of educated leaders that you may not yet have access to within your own congregation.

The Superhero of Partnership

 

I hope that you now see the superpower of partnership and the ways collaboration benefits your ministry.  Now, allow me to introduce a superhero who can help you in your quest for partnership– your local AMS.  

Hopefully, the local AMS at your association has been there long enough to have the one gift you need– the power of connection.  The AMS has an acute knowledge of not only the churches in his association, but of each pastor, and each congregation.  When you need ministry partners, there is no better place to start than your AMS.  Have a music/worship need?  He knows of a local cohort of worship leaders you can join.  He also knows which churches have large choirs and an abundance of musicians who may be able to join you for a while.  Have a question about polity?  He knows which church recently rewrote their bylaws, and what roadblocks they ran into, and he knows who you need to call at the state level for assistance.  Need help with VBS?  He knows the church doing theirs weeks before yours, and he’s happy to put you in touch with them so you can borrow their decorations when they’re done.

If you’re interested in hearing more ways your AMS and your local association can assist you in radical collaboration, the Replant Bootcamp has a podcast and blog on the partnership between pastors and Associations.  

Opportunities to Partner with Us

When we talk about partnerships between pastors and associations, there is no better place to explore that than at the Replant Bootcamp events.  We have several coming up, from two Am I a Replanter labs in April, the Revive Summit in May and September, and of course, through our website and archives.  

Don’t forget to let us know how much your ministry partners have helped you by suggesting them as future guests using the “Suggest a Guest” button!  We would love to hear your stories!

What is Working Genius and How Does it Work for You?

Over the past eighteen months, our church has been revising and rewriting the church bylaws.  This has been an arduous, complicated process that took much longer than anyone expected.  The team that took on the project was coed and economically and generationally diverse. We expected to have disparate opinions and different ways of looking at many of the same issues.  We expected to have different strengths and weaknesses as we worked through this important project.

But there was one thing we didn’t expect– some of us felt excited during the same phases that left others feeling overwhelmed and frustrated. For several of us, the project’s initial phase was the most exciting– we loved asking questions and defining what needed to happen.  The possibility of creating a new document for our church that would be used for years to come was so inspiring! The lack of structure and organization during this time felt time-consuming and unproductive for others.  Likewise, some of us felt energized toward the end of the project as we saw all of the hard work come together, and we began to encourage our church about some new directions and ideas.  Others were ready to move on to the next project and wished we could move quicker to the next thing.

Did these differences mean that our team was unsuccessful?  Not at all. These differences are necessary and beneficial!  On a recent episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast, Jimbo and Bob walked listeners through a new tool called “Working Genius” by Patrick Lencioni.  Though the premise may sound similar to other personality tests and quizzes, the “genius” behind Working Genius is finding out where your team’s skills lie and which parts of a project line up with those specific gifts.

six types of working genius

The Good News: We’re All Geniuses!

One of the best aspects of Working Genius?  We are all geniuses!  It’s true– we all have an area of uniquely talented gifting.  We are more fulfilled and happier when we can work within what we are naturally good at.  In addition to seeing what our skills and gifts say about us, we can also find out where we fit within our team and project phases.  

The Six Types of Working Genius

According to Lencioni, the six types of Working Genius are:

  • The genius of wonder: The natural gift of pondering the greater potential and opportunity in any situation.  People gifted in this area love asking questions and feel creative in ambiguity.
  • The genius of invention: The natural gift of creating original and novel ideas and solutions. People gifted with this genius find joy in taking the challenges and generating solutions. They enjoy innovating from scratch and love a blank whiteboard piece of paper with which they can brainstorm.
  • The genius of discernment: The natural gift of intuitively and instinctively evaluating ideas and situations.  People gifted in this area are good curators of what’s going on around them and can recognize patterns. They know how to connect the dots and give people good feedback across a broad range of topics.
  • The genius of galvanizing: The natural gift of rallying, inspiring, and organizing others to take action.  People with this genius love to get things moving. They’re great at pushing people out of their comfort zones, inspiring them to get started, and moving them in the right direction.
  • The genius of enablement: The natural gift of providing encouragement and assistance for an idea or project.  This genius is people-oriented– they want to help realize a vision and provide the support needed to move.
  • The genius of tenacity: The natural gift of pushing projects or tasks to completion to achieve results. People gifted in this genius are task-oriented.  They love to take things across the finish line, and they ensure that a project is going to have the impact it’s supposed to have.

Project Stages

Every project has a workflow structure that follows a specific pattern.  The initial stage, where we are asking questions and answering with possible solutions, is called “ideation.”  This is the stage where people with the workplace geniuses of Wonder or Invention will feel energized, focused, and most productive.

In the next stage, we have answered our questions and have decided on a possible course of action.  But we are still getting ready for the next step.  We need people whose workplace genius is Discernment or Galvanizing to help us move into activation.  They will help us create “buy-in” for the ideas and ensure we move in the right direction.  The people with these geniuses will be excited to engage others in the work and cooperate with every team member.

Finally, after we ask and answer all the questions, cohesively move toward solutions, and ensure we are heading in the right direction, we are ready for the final stage of the project: Implementation.  In this stage, people with the working genius of Enablement or Tenacity will find joy in checking off boxes, encouraging others in their work, and getting the project to completion.

The Bad News: We’re Not Always Geniuses!

A name tag that reads "Hello I am a Genius"

Lencioni states that each person has two geniuses that fit them well– these strengths allow them to feel the most joy while at work on a project. Each person also has two Working Competencies.  These are the areas where we can perform the work, and we may even find satisfaction in it.  While we might be somewhat gifted in these areas, they do not bring us joy.  We also have two areas that are working frustrations.  These areas bring us– you guessed it– frustration.  These are the areas where we just really don’t enjoy this aspect of a project.  

Unfortunately, we are not always able to avoid those Working Frustrations.  As Replant Pastors, we are often called to work on a project from start to finish, regardless of which stage of the project brings us joy. So, how do we work within those moments of frustration without getting… frustrated?

Finding Einstein

A picture of Albert Einstein

There is this temptation, especially as a Replant Pastor with limited resources and limited people, to believe that you have to do it all.  Everything rests on you.  Each project is for you to accomplish from start to finish, whether rewriting bylaws or redoing the children’s classrooms.

Pastor, here is some truth: You can’t do it all.  If you thought you could, you would quickly discover that road leads to exhaustion, discouragement, and burnout.  (See last week’s podcast episode and blog for some tips to avoid burnout.)  You need other people.  You specifically need other people who aren’t just like you.  You need other geniuses in the room!

I can tell you from experience it isn’t easy to work with someone with a different genius.  If you have the genius of Wonder, you’re going to frustrate someone with the genius of Tenacity.  While you’re asking all the questions, they’ll just want to push forward to the part where they can start doing something.  If you have the genius of Invention, you may feel unsupported by someone with the genius of Discernment who doesn’t think your idea is a perfect one.

But we must recognize that those differences, however frustrating they may be, allow us to work better. Romans 12:3-8 reminds us that God, in His grace, gives us different gifts– but just as important, it reminds us that we aren’t to think more highly of ourselves because of our specific gifts.  We cannot envy someone else’s unique gifts or judge their gifts as somehow less than ours.

I recently attended a symphony concert with my daughter.  As we listened to the incredible music, I never thought, “Man, I wish this was just 150 trumpets all doing the same thing.” As much as I might love to hear the trumpet, the music was beautiful because every instrument was playing its part at the perfect time and volume.  The trumpet player wasn’t jealous of the violinist because it took both of them to create the symphonic sound.  Likewise, the trumpet player didn’t look down on the harpist because a trumpet couldn’t make that sound, which was necessary for the piece. 

Find the other Einsteins in your congregation with a genius that is different than yours– and then work with them on projects to make sure you’re all playing your part cohesively and beautifully for the Gospel.

If you want to take the Working Genius test or purchase it for your team, you can find more information here: https://www.workinggenius.com/about. And if you’re interested in other resources for team building and team strategies, check out our podcast episodes on Leadership Judo by searching the term or by looking at Les McKeown’s work on Predictable Success.

3 Ways to Recover from Church Hurt

Every one of us has had painful experiences in our relationships with others. This is because when sinners do life together, we are bound to be selfish, say hurtful words, and do hurtful things. Relationship “hurt” is unfortunately inescapable, and if we’re honest, we have been the culprit at times. But what do you do when someone gets hurt by the Church? 

The term “church hurt” has become increasingly popular in modern culture, but the concept is nothing new. I’ve talked to many people through the years and often ask, “Do you have a church home somewhere?” When they say “No,” I will sometimes press a little further. “Why not?” Their answers are not usually a difference of beliefs or a lack of desire. Instead, one of the most common answers people give is, “I’ve been hurt by the church.” 

Church Hurt is Real

See if any of these similar answers are familiar to you:

“I didn’t feel welcome.”

“I don’t trust religious leaders.”

“The people were too judgemental.”

“They weren’t supportive during a time of need.”

“I’ve just had bad experiences at the church.” 

All of these responses are related to Church Hurt in some type of way. Worse, there are many who have suffered abuse, manipulation, and mistreatment within the church. We may be quick to dismiss their response as unfounded and insignificant. But the truth is  people have had real hurt from others, and we need to be careful in our reaction. We all can take part in helping people reconcile relationships, seek healing, and understand the gospel of forgiveness. 

Pastors Face Hurt, Too

Church Members aren’t the only ones who get hurt. Pastors can be victims of this as well, and sometimes more severely. Forced termination, secret meetings, harsh criticism, gossip, and lack of care are all examples of hurt that pastors experience. 

The pressure of ministry can sometimes feel insurmountable. In the podcast episode this week, Jimbo and Bob help us understand how to endure church hurt and bounce back from painful experiences. If you are reading this as a church member, a pastor, or a replanter, here are a few ways that you can recover from church hurt.

#1. Evaluate Your Experience with Self-Awareness

I cannot stress how important self-awareness is. Two psychologists came up with this definition: Self-awareness is the ability to focus on yourself and how your actions, thoughts, or emotions do or don’t align with your internal standards. If that wasn’t clear enough, I’ll put it another way: step out of your emotions of the situation and internally think about what actually happened in your hurtful experience. 

We need to separate in our mind what feels true, versus what is true. 

Without diminishing the experience of church hurt, I fear that we are too quick to highly-sensationalize our hurt and project it on to other people, oftentimes using friends as a sounding board. 

If we were to step back and survey our experience of hurt, we could probably come back with some observations. We know all people are sinners. We know that sometimes people say hurtful things. We know that not all are as spiritually mature as others. And we know that sometimes, our feelings control our responses instead of rational thinking. As Bob mentioned in the podcast, “We’re not as great as we think we are, and we’re not as bad as we think we are.”

Should church hurt ruin your experience of church all together? Don’t let a few experiences destroy your ability to love the church as God’s bride that will one day be sanctified. We should face the rational truth that the “Church” doesn’t hurt people, and God doesn’t hurt people. Sinful people within the church hurt people. 

The church is universal. And if a relationship is unable to be reconciled, you may end up seeking a new church. But to drop out of church altogether shows that you think that all churches will hurt you in a similar fashion. This is simply not true. To learn the ability of self-awareness means that you know your identity. And you must be able to cut through the noise of your emotions and think about how to handle the situation to bring God the most glory.

#2. Seek Reconciliation with the Parties Involved

I wonder how many believers have gone through a hurtful experience and never sought reconciliation of any kind? The scriptures are clear on what we are to do if a brother sins against us:

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” Matthew 18:15-17

The problem is  we are so quick to ignore this command, and we don’t even try Step One. We go straight to the church (we begin to gossip and win people to “our side”) without first going to our brother or sister. If we were to obey this scripture that Jesus teaches, we would probably win over (or win back) our brother or sister without it ever going to the church and creating more of a mess than what it actually was. 

If our church hurt comes from a verbal exchange, it’s best to go to that church member and say, “My brother, I’m not sure you realized that when you said _________, I felt like you were saying ___________. This was hurtful to me.” I wonder how many times we would see the grace of reconciled relationships, if we simply tamed our tongues and went directly to the source of the conflict. 

If God sent his Son to die on a cross and save you of your sins, he can give you the power and ability to witness his grace and forgiveness between believers. Immaturity, hurtfulness, and selfishness can come from a church that is not eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. 

But we are called to be peacemakers, not peacekeepers. There is a difference. Peacekeepers seek to drown out the noise, find some points of agreement, and bury the conflict. Peacemakers address sin, rebuke it, encourage repentance and reconciliation, and move on with grace and forgiveness. This promotes maturity in the church and a unified spirit, while peacekeeping shows a lack of care and hides sin beneath a rug.

By the power of the Holy Spirit living in us, we can seek reconciliation from church hurt and move on with one another in the work of ministry.

#3. Be Patient in Seeking Recovery

I admit and agree, not every hurtful experience ends with friendship and hugs between parties. Some of these experiences are real, damaging, and require some separation. It may be necessary for your health to separate from a relationship, especially if it’s a repeated pattern of painful experiences. While it may be true that time heals wounds, it only heals if there is intentionality in pursuing health throughout the experience. And the closer a person is to you, the more hurtful the experience is.

But the work of ministry and the expansion of God’s kingdom is bigger than our earthly relationships. There are some ways in which we can, “bear with one another in love,” to continue serving together in the same body of Christ, even after a painful experience.

One biblical example of this hurt would be between Paul and Barnabas. “And there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus. But Paul chose Silas and left . . .” (Acts 15:38). In Paul’s relationship with Barnabas, there needed to be some time they spent away from one another. After a “sharp disagreement,” they parted ways, but still continued on with the work of ministry. Interestingly, near the end of Paul’s life, he said this to Timothy: “Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is very useful to me for ministry,” 2 Timothy 4:11.

After a hurtful experience, we must begin leaning forward, and not get stuck. It’s easy to drown out in isolation and be alone. But healing takes more time when we are alone. My encouragement is this: surround yourselves with counsel and solid friends as you recover. If needed, seek professional help as well. Because the work of ministry must go on. James 5:16 says, “Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.” If I need healing, I know I need close friends around me, praying for me.

While church hurt is real and painful, keep this in mind: we will only experience hurt on this side of Heaven. And we have a day to look forward to in which “pain will be no more.” While we are on this earth, let us not only seek God’s grace to recover from pain, but let us also extend that grace towards others around us. Painful experiences are a part of being human, but we can control how we handle it, to the glory of God.

EP 189 – TRAVAILS AND TROUBLES IN REPLANTING

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EP 189 - TRAVAILS AND TROUBLES IN REPLANTING
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In this EP the guys talk about their travels and a bit of their troubles on the road and then pivot to discuss an important principle related to the work of Replanting-Jesus is always with you and he will deliver you from every trial and trouble.

Here are a few highlights:

  • Troubles and challenges come in surprising ways-you want to change the bulletin and almost get fired.
  • Every ministry setting has its own set of challenges
  • Struggle and and trial are part of ministry – don’t be surprised
  • If God can save you from your sins (and he can and does) he will deliver you from everything else

We find encouragement and hope in Paul’s words:

He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will deliver us again. 2 Corinthians 1:10

Get some help and hope for your web presence by contacting our good friends at One Eighty Digital. They are the exclusive sponsor of the Bootcamp and can get your church up and running with a website that will communicate clearly with your community.

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EP 182 – THE CONFLICT CONVERSATION

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EP 182 - THE CONFLICT CONVERSATION
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Welcome back Bootcampers!  We’re jumping back in on the subject of conflict, with the “other” Bob. Today the guys get down to the important subject of how to have the “conflict” conversation.

First, a little definition on one of the important characteristics of Replanters, the willingness to confront.

Willingness to Confront:  the replant pastor with a willingness confront is able to willingly but not eagerly, navigate conflict with directness, love, humility, patience and wisdom, driven by a love for the church and her members.

As they jump in here’s the resource mentioned: Crucial Conversations.  A crucial conversation is any conversation where you know, there will be opposing opinions where there’s strong emotions and the stakes are high.

Here are some quick insights when it comes to crucial conversations

  • We need to look at an entire pattern – not just an instance
  • It is important to prepare for crucial conversations
  • Avoid jumping to the “worst” interpretation of an offense

Here are some tips to be more productive during times where you are having crucial conversations.

  • Be self aware-know what your triggers are and what is taking place inside of you.
  • Ask yourself in that moment: “Why am I feeling this way?”
  • Understand what story you are telling yourself.

Avoid making the fool’s choice:  which is when I believe in the heat of the moment that everything is either or.

Check out the rest of this EP for some incredible helps on dealing with conflict.

 

Get the help you need for your church’s website and web-presence. Our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital can get you headed in the right direction.

 

 

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How to Navigate Church Conflict

Mapping your way to successful resolutions

A fun fact about me is that I am terrified of frogs. I don’t know why, or when the fear of frogs started. I just know that when I get near one, something in me is convinced that the frog’s mission in life is to jump on my face. I break into a cold sweat and walk to the other side of the street or sidewalk to avoid them. I don’t think they’re cute, and no, you can’t convince me otherwise. I feel similar feelings about snakes, but snakes aren’t typically going to jump on me and I am 100% CONVINCED that the frog will. We live beside a pond, so the spring and summer months are basically full of me zigzagging around the neighborhood in an effort to avoid frogs lying in wait to pounce on me while I take my dog out for a walk.

As scared as I am of frogs, there is something else that prompts that same “fight or flight” response for me: Conflict. I am what some might call “conflict-avoidant.” For me, conflict triggers the same response that frogs do– I break out into a cold sweat and start looking for a way to get around it. I just want to be through it as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately for me, conflict in ministry is as inevitable as the frogs in my neighborhood. It’s not a matter of “if” we experience conflict in church, it’s a matter of “when.” Sometimes the conflicts are simple, a small matter easily resolved. But some conflicts are bitter and hard, and they can leave us wounded and weary as we seek resolutions.

Our initial response to conflict can be very revealing of who we are as a person. There are those like me, for whom conflict is uncomfortable and frightening. We may have grown up in a household where fighting was common, or where showing emotions was not acceptable (either extreme can lead to conflict avoidance). Or you may be someone who looks forward to conflict as an area where you can assert yourself or your ideas. But something we should remember is that when we are faced with conflict, we are often reduced to our natural, self-destructive sin nature.

Knowing how to manage our conflicts is the key to seeing conflict properly– not as something to be afraid of, but instead as something to embrace. Too often, we think of conflict as a sign that we are failing. “If I was doing better, I wouldn’t have these issues,” we think. But the truth is, conflict can be a sign of health! In fact, handled correctly, conflict can provide us with great opportunities for spiritual growth and relationship building.

fingers pointing at each other

The Starting Point for Handling Conflict

On the Replant Bootcamp podcast this week, JimBob2 walked through what it looks like to handle conflict appropriately with the help of Michael Hare’s book, When Church Conflict Happens: A Proven Process for Resolving Unhealthy Disagreements and Embracing Healthy Ones. As a church conflict consultant, Hare has helped hundreds of people resolve conflicts in a healthy way.

Hare describes conflict in three categories:

  1. Unhealthy conflict- this type of disagreement often goes unrecognized until interpersonal disputes and church factions arise
  2. Benign conflict- this usually occurs because of organizational deficits and oversights that are unintentional
  3. Healthy conflict- disagreements that are recognized, acknowledged, and responded to in a biblically constructive manner.

When we are presented with a conflict, the most helpful question isn’t “what are you fighting about?” Instead, we need to look for the root of the disagreement. It’s not about the carpet color being changed, it’s more likely about the memories associated with the carpet or the fear of change in general. When we seek to understand the underlying emotions, we are cultivating a better church culture. Hare writes, “The manner in which church leaders respond to conflict sets the tone for the entire congregation and either provides a godly example of the ‘ministry of reconciliation’ or pushes conflict under the surface causing all kinds of trouble both in the present and in the future.”

Most of the time, in addition to the emotions of those involved in the conflict, we also bring our own bias into the equation. When we mediate a conflict, are we looking for compromises that won’t provide lasting resolution? Are we rushing to judge each person instead of listening to both sides? Are we responding with empathy, always keeping in mind Ephesians 4:15 and speaking the truth in love? Are we focused more on the unity of the body than on personal preferences? Emotions run high during conflict, and we must remember that our emotions are at work just as much as anyone else’s.

When we begin from a place of empathy and understand, we are responding redemptively. Hare describes this as something that isn’t natural for us– we have to train ourselves to begin at this point. He writes, “Learning to respond redemptively requires intentionality and discipline; it doesn’t happen naturally. We must be self-aware enough (with God’s help) to recognize when dangerous circumstances arise and be engaged in training ourselves in godliness so our immediate response becomes Christlike instead of defaulting to our old natural, sinful inclinations.”

Demystifying Conflict

Hare believes one of the ways we become better at mapping out conflict is to “demystify” it, or to remove some of the “unknowns” regarding conflict. Hare writes that conflict typically happens within 5 overlapping areas:

  • Intrapersonal: the conflict going on inside the individual person, a spiritual or emotional battle.
  • Interpersonal: the conflict between two people
  • Intragroup: the conflict within a group
  • Intergroup: the conflict between two groups
  • Structural: something within the organization that creates conflict.

When we are looking at a disagreement, we can typically see where this is happening and address each area accordingly. Hare uses the example found in Acts 6 to illustrate this overlap. In the disagreement among the Greek and the Hebrew widows, we see the apostles acknowledging the interpersonal and intrapersonal conflicts and responding with action. They didn’t avoid the conflict; they addressed the issue and found a way to continue the mission of the church.

Another key way we can “demystify” conflict is to look at potential structural causes for conflict. Many church disputes stem from disorganization within the systems of the church. (One group reserves a church vehicle for a conference only to find out another group takes an annual trip to the mountains that same weekend and have never had to sign out the vehicle.) Sometimes bylaws (or the lack of them) can cause misunderstandings. If you’re mediating a conflict between two groups or two people, it can be helpful to recognize areas where your church’s structure has contributed to the dispute and address those to avoid it in the future.

a chasm divides two sets of people

Kingdom Mindsets have Kingdom Resolutions

In resolving conflicts, we must move from a mentality that says “either/or” to one that says “both/and.” Using Acts 6 as an example, we see that the Apostles weren’t looking at the conflict as “Greeks versus Hebrews.” They didn’t feel like one group was more important than the other or that one group was better than the other. They found a way to say both groups are vital and we have to make sure that we are continuing the work of the Lord and making sure the needs of these people are met.

When we look with a Kingdom mindset, we are seeking the kingdom of God over our personal preferences and petty differences. We are looking not just in the best interest of our specific church, but in the best interest of God’s Church, the Bride of Christ. We are recognizing that we love the church too much to allow disputes and conflicts to gain a foothold in our unity and potentially drive a wedge between us.

Our ability to properly map out a conflict can mean the difference between an angry argument or a biblical resolution. Take time today to think about the most recent conflict you experienced. Would you handle it the same way now that you know how to map it out?

(There are multiple resources out there to handle conflict, but one that I found helpful was this list from NC Baptists of 20 ways to resolve church conflict.)

EP 181 – WHEN CHURCH CONFLICT HAPPENS

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EP 181 - WHEN CHURCH CONFLICT HAPPENS
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Hey Boot Campers we’re back in action but this time, with another Bob, the Lead Missional Strategist of First Coast Churches, Bob Bumgarner.

In this EP Jimbo and Bob get down to the important work of discussing how to deal with Church conflict. They recommend a great book-When Church Conflict Happens.  Here are some of the great highlights.

  • When conflict happens – you are not a failure.
  • Conflict always presents opportunities for new thinking, responses, and breakthrough.
  • There are three facets or types of conflict
    •             Unhealthy – when conflict goes unrecognized
    •             Benign – when church disagreements occur because of oversight
    •             Healthy – a disagreement that is spotted and responded to in a biblical manner

According to Hare, there are are five levels of conflict. Knowing them will help you navigate conflict in a way that can lead to productive healthy progress.

  1. Personal – conflict occurring inside of me personally
  2. Interpersonal – conflict occurring between two people
  3. Intragroup – conflict that occurs within a group of people
  4. Intergroup – conflict occurring between different groups
  5. Structural – something within the organization that creates conflict

Check out the rest of this EP for more great info and helpful tips on dealing with conflict and a coming EP Crucial Conversations.

 

Don’t let the inner conflict of having a less than great website get you down. Contact our great sponsor, One Eighty Digital and leverage their know how to help your church impact the community by accurately telling your church’s story.

 

 

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Respect in Leadership- Part Four of the Godly Leadership Series

R-e-s-p-e-c-t

This is part four of a series of five on the characteristics of Godly leaders. Part one, Humility, can be found here, Part two, Goodwill, can be found here, and Part Three, Empathy, can be found here.

My husband started his ministry as a Youth Pastor.  We loved working with youth.  We found them to be hungry for the Gospel and for truth, and we genuinely enjoyed their goofy immaturity, especially as they tried so hard to be “adults.” We learned so much from the youth we served, but one lesson specifically sticks with us: the difference between positional authority and relational authority.

In positional authority, you have a person’s respect because of your position in their life.  As adults, we are used to this authority because most of us have employers who are in the position to speak authoritatively in our lives. Many of us were also raised by parents who expected this type of respect. But in this generation, there is more value placed on relational authority, where a person’s respect is based on your relationship to them.  You can’t speak authoritatively in their life unless they value your relationship with them.

We had many adults who volunteered in youth ministry who felt that the youth would respect them because they were parents or teachers, or simply because they were older– positional authority. But what we found is that teenagers responded much better to relational authority.  We could earn their respect and the ability to speak truth in love to them when we had a relationship with them.  Without it, we were just another adult annoying them with rules and expectations.

Watching this generational switch showed us something: leaders have to show respect to others before they can ever earn the respect of others. 

Find Out What it Means to Me

Thankfully, God is not silent on the issue of respecting others.  In Romans 12:10, Paul tells us that not only are we to love one another, we should “outdo one another in showing honor.” (ESV, italics mine) We are to respect each other more and more, almost as though respecting each other is a competition we are seeking to win. In 1 Peter, Peter tells us we must respect not only the good and gentle, but also the unjust (1 Peter 2:16-18). And in Matthew 22, Jesus himself instructs us that the greatest commandment is to love God, but the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. 

Mankind is made in God’s image (Genesis 1:27), so when we are respecting others and honoring them, we are respecting Him. Thus the inverse is true– when we disrespect others, we have disrespected the image of God in them. This goes not only for how we treat people with our actions, but especially how we treat people with our words.  Ephesians 4 reminds us that we are called to “bear with one another” in an effort to always strive toward unity.  When we disrespect others through gossip or slander, we have failed to speak only what is “good for building up” and what gives grace to those who hear us. We must remember that respecting someone isn’t just about our treatment of them when they are around us, it’s also how we speak about them when they aren’t present.

two men shaking hands

Take Care (TCB)

In case you can’t tell, I haven’t been able to write this blog post without Aretha Franklin demanding respect in my head. I have always wondered what “TCB” meant, and after doing some research I found out it was her shorthand for “take care of business.” So here’s where we as leaders take care of the business of respecting others. There are five imperatives that we must follow if we are going to show the respect to others that we must as Godly leaders.

  1. Honor Others–  When someone leaves a conversation with you, do you think they felt honored? Did you respect them as a fellow Christ bearer?  Did you treat them with kindness or did you dismiss them with arrogance? A leader who shows respect to others will seek to serve others. How are you serving your team?
  2. Open Communication– Be intentional about how you speak to others. Your words have power, so what are they saying?  Are you respectful in how you speak to people? In a recent podcast, Bob pointed out that honoring someone can even mean speaking in a way that honors their expectations toward change. While a visionary leader may want to say, “Let’s do XYZ,” someone who respects others will say, “What do you think about XYZ?” Communicating in a way that honors the opinions of those around you is a way to show that you respect their ideas.
  3. Disagree Productively– While you will certainly have times that you disagree with people, respecting them means that you remember the end goal is always unity. Romans 14 and 15 give us Godly ways to disagree with someone without disrespecting them. Instead of responding to disagreements with personal attacks, we need to ask questions and seek to understand why the other person sees it differently.
  4. Help Others Win– When we respect others, we value what they value.  We don’t merely cheer them on, we actively encourage them, assisting in their ideas and goals where we can.  We get excited when they win, not jealous or bitter.  We respect their passions and hobbies.  We show up for them.
  5. Express Gratitude– The people you serve in your congregation aren’t there because they have to be. While you do have positional authority as the Pastor, you must also cultivate relational authority by remembering that they have chosen to be a part of the church family that God is creating.  You respect that choice by being grateful for them and for their contributions. Express that gratitude in various ways– not just verbally, but in writing or in small tokens of appreciation.

Respect- Just a Little Bit

George Foreman once wrote, “Without appreciation and respect for other people, true leadership becomes ineffective, if not impossible.” It’s not enough to merely have positional authority as Godly leaders.  We must build relationships on mutual respect to be able to be effective leaders who can speak the truth (in love) to our congregations. We must learn to treat others the way we want to be treated, giving them grace and honoring their story. 

Leaders who lead from a place of authority lead people to fear them more than respect them. True respect comes when a team can come together as a family and can acknowledge each person’s value within it, even when they disagree. 

For further reading on Respect as a Godly Leader, see Designed to Lead by Erik Geiger, this episode of the Replant Bootcamp podcast, and this article on the need for Pastors to respect their congregations.

Dealing with Forced Termination

“Here’s Your Envelope”

Recently, a Pastor was called up to the front of the church the week before Christmas Day. It had been a difficult four years in the church, and while there was no promise of any raise, at least he knew he would get a Christmas Bonus. The deacons made that clear when he first started. 

As he walked to the front, he felt a little bit of appreciation for the hard work he had done over the past year, and was grateful to receive anything extra the church could give for his family. After receiving an envelope as a Christmas Bonus, the church dismissed and he went home with his family.

“How much did they give you?” His wife asked once they got home.

As the pastor opened up the envelope, he stood there, frozen. It was an empty envelope. Thinking maybe there had been a mistake, he called the church treasurer. “Hey _____, I just got home and we opened up the envelope I was given as a Christmas bonus and…” 

“Pastor,” she replied, “I was just doing what I was told to do.” Click

With thoughts racing, he began calling some of his deacons. Time and time again, he was met with the same response. The deacons couldn’t meet until the first of the year. They kept pushing him off. Knowing that something was very off, Pastor decided to reach out to his Associational Director of Missions and schedule a meeting with all of the deacons.

At the beginning of the year, he met with the deacons with his DOM present. They began telling the pastor a list of grievances they had collected over his tenure. It was a list of petty complaints and differences. It was just what the pastor feared: the empty envelope was a ruse to see if he would leave. As a result of the mediation that took place, some deacons decided to leave, and others stayed. But the pastor had to deal with this ugly reality:

The church had tried to forcefully terminate him.

Been there?

In Ep. 174 of the podcast, we were reminded that ministry is not for the faint of heart. We have all heard the horror stories, and perhaps you may have experienced forced termination yourself. Sometimes it happens with secret meetings, met after church hours in a Sunday School classroom. Forced termination can come from a small group of people who have had it out for the pastor as soon as he arrived. We’ve heard it with a letter on the office desk, changing the locks on the doors, or a knock on the door in the middle of the night by a church member. Some may have heard the words, “We had a vote of no confidence…”

I recently was working with a church Revitalization project. When I visited a Wednesday night service, I noticed the pastor’s wife crying. When I asked her what was wrong, she pulled out an anonymous letter she had received in the mailbox. It was from a former member that had left during the current pastor’s tenure. The letter read, “For the sake of this church and God, please take you and your family and leave our church.”

People can sometimes be cruel and hurtful.

A study recently conducted that of all pastors, 23-41% will experience a forced termination once in their career.  Four out of 10 pastors will be forced out of their church either by firing or by some sort of pressure that leads to their departure.

Effects on the Church

If you’ve ever been fired from a church, no matter the circumstance, it is deeply painful. We tend to find identity in our vocation, and when being “let go” we start to feel like there is something wrong with us. It is no surprise that many pastors either walk away from the ministry or at least take a leave of absence from the ministry itself after a situation like this. 

But there are many effects of forced termination on a church as well. David Myers, a retired Director of Missions from Chattanooga, wrote in an article:

What forced termination does to the soul of the congregation is significant in and of itself, but the practical, logistical impact is also significant. The church may lose members who are unhappy with what has occurred or how it was done. The loss of financial support may result from membership decline or withholding money. The name and reputation of the church is marred in the community and beyond. Hesitant, reserved or negative recommendations of the church are given to prospective new ministers for that church. Many ministers are reluctant to consider relocation to a church that terminated its previous minister.

Evidence in Declining Churches?

Since this website deals mainly with Church Replants and Revitalizations, we need to address a specific angle of forced termination. What does it mean if the church you are working with has a history of firing pastors?

It may not be written in the business meeting minutes, but you can often find out by asking several long-tenured members of the church what happened to pastors in the past. There is something wrong with a church that historically has found ways to “let go” of their pastors. For example, many churches have used the word “incompetence” as reason to fire a pastor. But when “incompetence” is defined by decisions a pastor has made that some disagree with, that is not incompetence. When infrastructure and preference take priority over the leadership of your pastor, these are dangerous signs of a declining, unhealthy church. 

A church like this has some foundational issues. They are rejecting the biblical teaching of obedience to spiritual authority. When a Pastor has violated any code of conduct, shown evidence of sinful patterns, or put the people of God at risk of danger from false teaching or lack of care, these are real issues that should be addressed under the right structure. A church should be able to rely on their constitution and bylaws to go through the right process, and address any significant issues in the church.

And there are ways that we can prevent this from happening. It’s important that a pastor has a leadership team or a board to filter significant decisions through. But this comes with the understanding that a pastor must lead the way that God is calling him to lead, as long as it lines up with biblical teaching.

What can we do to help a church change their ways of the past?

  1. Go back and address the wrongs of past leaders against them and their families. There is nothing more scarring to a pastor and his family. This pain for the former pastor’s families should be addressed in the church and dealt with in a graceful way. 
  2. Remove those who have instigated or been involved with unfounded and unreasonable terminations from leadership positions within the church. Or at least have a hard conversation with them. If a church has some bullies, or a few who like to stir up the pot and be involved in “behind-the-scenes” campaigns, you cannot allow them to persist in places of leadership. 
  3. Address informal campaigns to force a pastor out through biblically based, by-law supported church discipline. Church discipline is one of the most neglected practices in the church today. But you would think that a church practice that is distinctly and specifically biblical would be practiced to pursue church health. Every healthy document of church constitution and bylaws should have a member conduct clause and a church discipline clause. 
  4. Make careful note of the redemptive actions taken above (repentance, reconciliation, peacemaking, and church discipline), and commit as a church to not let this happen in the future. 

If you’ve been a pastor who has been hurt by forceful termination, we know how painful this is. For encouragement and help, check out this article. And this helpful article from the Pastor’s Hope Network. For encouragement, help, and advice, don’t hesitate to reach out to our team here at the Replant Bootcamp. 

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