JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are. Back at it again. Bob, I hope you’re ready for the next episode on not another bootcamp podcast.

Bob Bickford: I see what you did there, Jimbo.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, we’re excited. We’ve got a fun guest and a fun friend, Dr. Kyle Bierman is with us in the house today.

Kyle Bueermann: Hey, it’s great to be back on the bootcamp. It’s been a bit. That’s a lot of bees. It’s been been a

Bob Bickford: while. Well,

I am

Kyle Bueermann: Bob

Bickford. Bob

JimBo Stewart: Bickford. Bob Bickford. Bob Bickford. Beautiful. Uh, what is it? The beautiful bob.

Beautiful

Bob Bickford: Below average butterfly singing kisses.

Bob

Bickford.

JimBo Stewart: butter butterfly singing kisses, butterfly kisses. Singing.

Yeah. I, There

you sorry. Yeah, we still gotta get that on the podcast at some point.

Just a, just an audio snippet of you singing a little bit of

Bob Bickford: there’s no audio, there is no video. There’s only this story that I’ve

shared

with

you.

JimBo Stewart: Hi. I mean, I, at some point I’m gonna need more, but we’ll take what we can get. Hey, if you hear a little rattle,

that’s

our PTOs [00:01:00] cups with our waters so that we could stay quenched while we have this podcast with you.

Cuz when you’re in Texas, you have to

stop at

Bob Bickford: Suda. Yeah, we need to break that down for the listeners. So, the listeners that

are

not. In the great state of Texas or have not been through the Great Nation

of

Texas.

There are a

few restaurants that you should check out, but one definitely

is

PTOs. Yeah,

Their fajitas

are amazing. They marinate their steak in Dr. Pepper

JimBo Stewart: and you know, and if you’ve never heard that the first time you hear that

mm-hmm.

There’s a moment where you go, I wonder if that’s as good as that sounds. Yes, it is. It’s better.

Yes. Yes.

Kyle Bueermann: Yes.

Bob Bickford: And

the butter sauce that you get at PTOs

is

amazing

too.

JimBo Stewart: I mean, pretty much anything marinated in Dr. Pepper and dipped in butter is gonna

Bob Bickford: be

good.

Right? So, well, Jimbo, I’m gonna challenge you on that. Beets,

I

do not

like beets marinated in Dr. Pepper and dipped in

butter.

I’m

not

going

for

that

challenge

accepted.

JimBo Stewart: [00:02:00] I’m

gonna figure

out how to

make it

Kyle Bueermann: that

that needs to happen

JimBo Stewart: in

an episode.

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah,

where you you get beats marinated in Dr.

Pepper and

dip

em in butter and just record

the

experience.

in

Bob Bickford: Yeah, it’d be like your hot chip challenge.

JimBo Stewart: On

another,

another not

Kyle Bueermann: I’m

out. I’ve

retired from

that.

All right.

I had a, had a couple of bad

experiences

and

I’m

out

on

the

one chip challenge.

JimBo Stewart: well, hey, if you don’t know who, Kyle Bierman is.

Kyle, introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us just a little bit

about

you.

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah, so, I’m the rural guy for, for the, replant team. And married to Michelle. We have two

kids,

Noah

and

Hailey. And,

JimBo Stewart: Hold on. Is that your official title?

The

Rural

Kyle Bueermann: I,

so

I

think my, official title is

Rural

Specialist for

Replant

Strategies.

JimBo Stewart: Oh,

okay. Yeah,

I

like

that. Yeah.

Well,

I

didn’t

know

that

was

his

father. That was,

Kyle Bueermann: you’re

his boss’s. That’s based on the, uh, the job description that I got from you.

I,

I believe.

Oh,

alright. Don’t have to

look

that

up

But yeah, it’s, so,

it’s

easier

just

to

say

JimBo Stewart: wait, you got

Kyle Bueermann: real guy what you got job description [00:03:00]

with,

roles and responsibilities and everything,

man.

It’s

bullet points. yeah. So I’m married to Michelle. We have, two kids, Noah Haley, and we live in Lubbock, Texas. Where there is not a papa

CTOs,

believe

it

or

not. Yeah.

So

Bob Bickford: there’s however,

Kyle Bueermann: a

twisted

root,

Oh,

oh,

Bob Bickford: burger place. But,

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. uh,

this

is

not

a

food

episode,

so

we should, every, every episode is at least a

little bit

Kyle Bueermann: of

food

episode.

But you’re not Jo if, if you are anywhere near a twisted root,

you

need

to

give it

a shot.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So a couple good recommendations there for you, Papas twisted root. Hey, so not only do you work for the replant team, not only are you married and have children, but you also have, another podcast that you’re on.

Yeah. And you have another podcast of which you are like, what? The executive producer something?

Is that the title? If it were, if

we’re just

making up

titles

Kyle Bueermann: today. Yeah.

You

sure. The, the executive producer, which

means

I

pushed the record

button.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. All right. So

tell us about

those

other

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah, so the, the first podcast is, not another Baptist podcast [00:04:00] with, Matt Hensley that

we’ve

hosted for

the last

five

and

a

half

years

I

think it

is now.

Bob Bickford: Wow.

JimBo Stewart: how

many episodes

is

that?

Kyle Bueermann: we’re into the, we’re not quite at 200 yet. I think I saw or we’re not quite at 300. I think

I

saw

2

89 or something like that.

Yeah.

Is

where we are. and then, yeah, I’m the executive producer on the new, revitalize and replant with Mark Clifton, with special guest, uh, mark Hallick and hosted

by

Dan Hurst. And, and I actually

in

an episode

that’ll come

up.

sometime

in May or

June,

like

I

actually

get

to make an

appearance on

the Ooh,

for, for, one line, it’s fam Mark asked

me

a

question

and

had

me step

onto

the

mic.

JimBo Stewart: but now we’ve gotta see

if

it makes it through

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah, that’s

right.

So yeah. I, I mean, I can make up whatever

title

I’m, I’m

the

guy

who

pushes

the

record

button

on

that

Bob Bickford: one. Well,

he does, he,

you

do a little

more

than that.

You

wrangle the

talents and

you Coordinate,

Kyle Bueermann: co

getting everybody

together. You help

content. Yeah.

And then, have

to,

you know,

make them notes of, you

know,

mark

Kaft, we gotta take that out

[00:05:00] here.

And

JimBo Stewart: Oh, that’s a lot of fun. Yeah,

that’s good. All right. So a couple other things to

know about

Kyle

though

is he is

also

an author.

Right. So we’ve got a few things out there with your name.

Yeah.

That’s the

author

line.

Talk

to

us

about those

real quick.

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah. So the, the first book, uh, was one that I co-wrote with Matt Hensley called, replanting

Rural Churches.

And that book

is

all of

about 60 pages. so

we, we,

set

out to write a book

for

people who don’t

like

to read.

And,

it’s

done

pretty well actually.

So I guess that

that

hit a niche.

and then

JimBo Stewart: do you have anybody go,

man,

I hated

reading

until

Kyle Bueermann: read that

Bob Bickford: one.

JimBo Stewart: and

Kyle Bueermann: No, but I mean, we have

had

some

books say, I

don’t like to

read books,

but I read

your book,

because Oh,

good.

We got, I got it in the

mail and I

realized,

JimBo Stewart: oh,

Kyle Bueermann: it’s

like a

pamphlet,

so I

can

read that.

That’s

JimBo Stewart: fine.

Kyle Bueermann: Um,

JimBo Stewart: and

Kyle Bueermann: then,

then the book we’re talking about today. I, uh, reworked my Doctor of Ministry project and turned that into a book called

They

Devoted Themselves

based

on Acts two. then Hensley and I wrote

a

Christmas devotional

[00:06:00] just

in 2020

cuz

we

weren’t

doing anything else with

our time.

So, hey,

let’s

just, let’s

put together a real

simple

Christmas

devotional.

Called

the

people

who

Walked

in

Darkness. yeah, I got a

Bob Bickford: And

there’s another

book called Not Another

Heresy.

Kyle Bueermann: Yes, there is. Could

you

Bob Bickford: explain

that book to

us?

Kyle Bueermann: that is,

you, you’re gonna pay about 20

bucks

for that, and you’re gonna

be sorely disappointed.

It’s a,

it’s a,

it’s

a

$20

paper weight is what it is.

So

it’s, um,

yeah, not another heresy,

a

comprehensive guide to.

Like

object

lessons about

the Trinity or something like that.

And that are

not

heretical and it’s eight Yes. That are not here. Non heretical object lessons

for

the Trinity

and

it’s

800 pages

and

Amazon

would not let

us just

do blank pages.

Okay.

So

every page

has

one sentence.

There

are none.

Period.

It’s 800

pages of that.

Wow.

It’s,

I mean, and it’s

the, the largest,

book

format

size

that

we could

get

on

Amazon.

Kindle

Direct. Okay.

Have you’ve sold

[00:07:00] some

Actually

we

have,

I

dunno how

or

what.

Disney

Bob Bickford: year? Is

that

it?

Kyle Bueermann: and, and Hensley. I remember when he put it up there, he made it like, as

cheap

as

possible for that

size

And

it came out

at like 17 or

$18. Oh no. Yeah. And I do have one on

my

shelf.

it looks really impressive. it’s just

a

fun novelty so.

You

know,

if

you

want

something

on your

shelf

that

looks

really good,

JimBo Stewart: yeah.

Or,

you

looks like a really big, thick book. And you,

you know,

what you do is you’d

be like, oh yeah,

this is the

book

I read

this

week.

Yeah,

that’s right. And you just show the

Kyle Bueermann: of it

Bob Bickford: your life. yeah, this

JimBo Stewart: is the kind of book I

read

in a

week.

Bob Bickford: It’s

just

a

little

bit

longer

than Replant Roadmap by

Kyle Bueermann: Markel. Yeah,

JimBo Stewart: that’s

right.

Yeah,

that’s

right.

Just

a bit.

That’s close.

All right, well

give us

an

overview of they devoted themselves.

Actually, you know

what?

Because I know how hard you worked on a doctoral doctoral degree. Like why that, why,

why was

that

the

subject

of

your doctoral

research?

Kyle Bueermann: So

I came across

this

[00:08:00] passage, acts 2 42

through 47,

back

when

I

was a

youth minister. I, I

was,

I

was

at a

new church,

this would’ve been like 2007.

So

I

was 23.

Came

into a new church

and and was kind of exploring what

to

do and

came

across

this

study.

And

this

is

gonna age myself here, Bob.

Bob Bickford: you’re

saying

that

to

the old

Kyle Bueermann: I know guy,

but

I came across

this study that

was

put

out

by

Simply

Youth

Ministry.

And

Doug Fields.

Yeah, Doug. All right. Yeah, and

it was called Church as

it should Be.

It

was

a

study

of

the book

of

Acts,

like

a six

week

kind of

overview

of the

book

of

Acts.

Bob Bickford: That

is

a

very youth

minister

Kyle Bueermann: title.

For

a book.

Yes. Yeah.

and so like I bought this package series, from Simply Youth Ministry, and

I think

it

was

the

second or third,

maybe the second,

lesson

in that,

in

that

series was on Acts 2 42 through 47. And so the context

of

that

is,

it’s

the passage that comes right after Pentecost,

right?

So

Pentecost Peter preaches,

3000

people

are saved.

And

then you [00:09:00] get this

passage

in

verses 42

through

47 that

just kind of

explain

what

the early church did,

how, how

they,

how

they

went about

their daily lives

as followers

of Christ. And so

in

2007, like

I was still

working

on

my master’s degree

And

I

just remember thinking, man, if, if

I ever.

Write a

book.

It

would

probably

be on this passage. Like, I, I

just

want

to

dive into this passage. Well, when I got

into

my

demonn and started

getting

closer to

my project,

it

dawned

on

me.

This

is

basically a book

that, that

I’m

gonna

have

to be working on,

and

can

I

take

the principles

from

that

passage

and

turn

that into a discipleship

project.

And,

uh, so

that’s the, that’s the direction that

I went with

it.

And

yeah.

you

know,

I had to

do all the

academic, had

to do like a teaching series at the

church,

and

so

I

was able to develop kind

of study guides based

off

of

that and

some

questions that

made

their

way into the end of each chapter

of

the book.

And then once I

was

done

with my dmn, I

had

all

this

research

that

I’d already put

together

and I said

I could

fairly

simply

take

this and

[00:10:00] de.

Aise.

JimBo Stewart: de

Bob Bickford: ized.

JimBo Stewart: de

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah.

JimBo Stewart: Dumb

it.

No,

that’s not de

Kyle Bueermann: I Marty,

I

a tiny restaurant called

Bob Bickford: De

JimBo Stewart: the,

Bob Bickford: Ice.

Kyle Bueermann: May,

may, may,

you know,

JimBo Stewart: take, take

Kyle Bueermann: like all the statistics, uh,

a

lot of

the statistics

and

stuff

that

you

have

to

have for a,

yeah.

For, For,

a,

an

academic

project.

Yeah.

And

just make it a

basic

book

on

discipleship.

And,

uh,

so

that’s

what

I did

and,

pretty, pretty

happy

with

the

way that

it

turned

out.

All in all,

Bob Bickford: you

know,

one

of the

things

we

realize

when we start

working

with declining

churches, all

three of

us have

been

part of that. As a

replant

team,

we’ll

go

and

consult a, dying church.

It

seems like

discipleship

is assumed.

Yeah.

it’s

mostly

absent.

Would you say that

is

true,

Kyle?

And

then

how

does what

what you

studied.

Challenge

churches

to

consider

engaging

in

discipleship

practices

and

patterns?

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah,

I,

I,

I

think you’re exactly right in that

[00:11:00] when,

when

you

say discipleship is this assumed, because what we saw for years and

years through, you know, growing what

I

saw

growing

up

in

children’s

ministry

and

RAs

and

youth

ministry,

you came

to faith

in Christ.

We’re baptized

and

then

it

was

almost

like, okay, here’s the slate of activities that we have.

you’re gonna

do these things on Sunday morning, you’re

gonna

be involved in a, in

a Sunday

school

class.

you’re

gonna be

be

involved in something on Wednesday

nights.

And through those things,

we

think you’re gonna grow in your

relationship

with

Christ.

Mm-hmm.

and so

it was, it was,

assumed, but

there wasn’t.

I

think

you’re

right

in that

there wasn’t

a,

like, real

strategy

to the

way

that

those things were done. and

I

mean, I

probably fell

into

that trap

when

I

was

a

youth

minister as well.

You

know, we,

you, you

get bogged down

in,

into

the weekly routine of

we

gotta

do

Sunday morning

routine, I gotta

do

Wednesday night routine.

and

and through

that

I

think

our,

our students will be discipled, And

that’s not the

way the early church went about it, right? I

mean, they,

they

act Acts 2

42

through

47

tells us that they

did certain [00:12:00] things

and, but it was an, it was a daily experience. It wasn’t just a,

they showed

up

at

the

temple for

an hour on Wednesday nights and checked that off their weekly

to-do

list. They, they

were

involved in

each other’s

lives.

It

was a

robust

discipleship experience,

That I

don’t

think

we’ve

replicated all

that

well

in

the

21st

century.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I, I’ve heard it said that we have reduced the great commission to the functional great commission of going to all the world make more worship attenders, baptizing ’em in the name of small groups and teaching

them to

volunteer.

A few times a month. And then that’s

ministry

and Yeah.

And then that’s okay. Now you’re a disciple. Right. If

you,

ultimately

what

we, what

we’re

communicating when we operate that

way is

you

are

an

effective disciple if you serve this organization Right. And keep its programs running. Yeah. Right. And, what

you’re proposing

is, is a much different,

Concept.

Yeah.

Of discipleship. [00:13:00] So talk to us about, especially for our primary audience, is smaller churches, in

need of replanting or in the process of replanting or in need of revitalization. what are the basics kind of, that we can glean out of this that are, are doable Because cultures

so

different than it was during the first century church.

Right? You, you know, you had a little bit more flexibility in your time and

less.

Things going on. And so, you know, you could do this a little more than you can now, at least as far as

easier.

So

what

are some

of

the

highlights

of

some

of the

concepts

that our listeners need to think

about,

in

applying

this

to

discipleship

in

their

churches?

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah.

so

I think the,

the

big

topics

that

you can pull out

of

Acts two are, are

the big

takeaways, right? So, so, so

Acts

2

42

through 47

just

starts

and it

says

they devoted themselves to,

and

then it

lists some things that

they

devoted themselves to, and

it, and

it goes through some

of

the ways

that

they devoted themselves to

these

things. And so, There

are six

kind

of

primary chapters in the books. They [00:14:00] devoted themselves to Christ.

That’s

the

first thing,

right?

If you’re

to

be a follower

of

Christ

is

to

be devoted to him.

Yeah.

And then these other things follow out, flow

out

of that.

Then

they devoted themselves

to

scripture,

to

fellowship, to prayer, to worship,

and

to evangelism.

I mean, if

you

go

back

in

SBC

history,

these are, were called

the five

functions of

the church,

right?

I mean

these mm-hmm.

I,

I didn’t

reinvent

these

concepts

at

all.

These

are basics, but

I think

there’s,

something to be

said for

revisiting

these

very basic

things.

Yeah. And, And,

how they’re played

out.

and, and I

think that’s a key too.

There are all kinds,

there’s

all

kinds

of discipleship material

out

there.

There are

all kinds of discipleship

strategies.

You

don’t have to overcomplicate

it.

Discipleship,

even

robust

discipleship

does not

have

to be complicated.

It

can be simple.

but

you

do

need to

think

through,

okay, what, what do we

want

a

follower of Christ

who spends 3,

5,

7, 9, 10 years at

our church?

What

do

we

want

them to look like [00:15:00] as

they

spend

time,

as

they

take

part

in

the programs that we

have?

What,

how, how

do we

want

their

faith to

be

shaped

because

they’re

a part

of

our

local

church?

Bob Bickford: So

Kyle, one

of

the

challenges of a

Norma

size church

is that the, the pastor who

has

a

heart for discipleship

and

wants to define what

a

disciple is like you’ve mentioned,

Who does

he

do that with? Does

he

just declare, here’s what

a

disciple looks like? Does he

preach through

a

series

of

scripture?

Does

he work with

lay leaders who are in, in charge, you know,

with

kids

areas and

students

and

adults

and senior adults and couples and

those

sorts

of

things.

How do,

how

do

you

develop

a

picture

of

what a

disciple

looks

like?

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah. So

I

think

it, it can take place in all of those things. I mean, you can start

the

process with

a

sermon series

that

explains

kind of, Hey, here’s

what

discipleship looks

like in the New

Testament. I

think where

especially smaller church pastors and, and that’s all I’ve ever experienced is [00:16:00] smaller church.

So

I,

I’m

saying this,

As

a criticism of of myself and, and,

and what

I did.

I

think

sometimes

we

can

get so busy

that we

will

say,

Hey,

I’m

gonna

start

with

the

sermon series

and

then I have some

other

things

that I

would like

to

build off of this.

But

you get so busy doing

the.

Just

week to week

ministry that

you

never move beyond

that

sermon series.

Mm-hmm.

And

so you’ve

kind

of

planted this

idea of, hey,

here’s, here’s

what a

disciple

looks like. We’re gonna take this a

little bit deeper. And then

you

never make

it

to the deeper.

So

you can start it with a

sermon series

and

plant that idea

in

some

people’s

heads,

but

it’s gotta go beyond that. And

so I think,

you know, for

me,

when,

when

I

was pastoring,

one of

the

things

that

I

think

I

did

well

was

pouring into.

some young men

in

like

one-on-one settings,

right?

So

beyond

just the

Sunday morning

gathering,

getting

guys

whether it

was breakfast or coffee in

the

afternoon or whenever

they

were

available

and

and walking

through

some of these

same

concepts,

because

[00:17:00] you’ve

gotta start somewhere. And so I would say, you know, you could use

a

sermon

series

to

launch into that

and say, Hey,

if

you

are interested in moving forward,

Talk

to

me

and,

let’s

begin going deeper. And then

you

develop,

I

ideally

you

develop

some

folks

who can

then turn

around

and

pour

into others

and can

pour

into others. And that’s,

if

you’re

familiar with, Robert Coleman and Master

Plan

of

Evangelism,

that’s

kind

of

the

pattern

that

he,

that,

that

he

talks

about Jesus developing

is mm-hmm.

Spending

time with people.

And

then

releasing them

to to pour into other people as well.

the

key

to any

discipleship process

is it’s

gotta

be

reproducible.

And

you

as

the pastor cannot be

the

only one that’s doing it.

It’s,

it’s never gonna grow.

If,

if that’s how you’re gonna become

the

person

that

everyone comes

to with

their,

with

all

their stuff.

You’ve

gotta hand

that disciple making off

and

that

takes

a long

time.

I

mean,

you’re talking a year’s long process mm-hmm.

To

develop that [00:18:00] culture in

a church.

But

that’s

where, you

know,

as

we

talk, preach, pray,

love,

and stay,

that’s

where

that stay peace really

comes

into

play.

Where

you can

develop

this

discipleship pipeline

that

can,

that

can reproduce

itself

in the life of

your

church.

JimBo Stewart: I love

the emphasis on

pouring into

young guys like you talked about.

Cause that was been my experience as well, and. You

know, mark Clifton talks about that in reclaiming glory, the kind of secret sauce of pouring into

young

guys

like that.

And

I have

found, even in this role at NAM and with the association, sometimes I will talk to guys who are bivocational. They’re working 50 hours

a week in

their non-church vocation.

and so their time.

To

give

to

this church that they’re pastoring is so unbelievably

limited that, they really only have the scope to choose a couple of things, right? and for the most part, it’s kind of like, preach, pray, love,

stay. That’s the

list.

That’s,

Bob Bickford: that’s

JimBo Stewart: they

can

preach, they

[00:19:00] can pray

they can love everybody,

Kyle Bueermann: sick,

Yeah.

JimBo Stewart: love.

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah.

I

mean

JimBo Stewart: there’s,

they

don’t

have

time

for

much.

And

so

one

of

the things

I’ve

always

encouraged ’em

to always

say,

look,

don’t.

The

last

thing

you

need to

do

in

that

position

is

go

read

20

books on church

revitalization

and

try

to

apply

all those

strategies.

Yep.

You

don’t have the

time.

What

you can

do.

Pick

a couple

guys.

Yep. Start

discipling them.

Teach

them how to disciple somebody.

As

a matter of fact,

if

all you

did

was

preach,

visit

the

sick,

pray for your

people

and

disciple a couple guys. if you got the time, if you’ve got the runway that

could lead.

Yeah.

To

a

much healthier church

if

they’ll start discipling other

people.

Kyle Bueermann: well, and in reality, I mean, so, so you have two lanes primarily,

right?

if

if

that’s

you

and,

and you’re a

bivocational

guy who’s

working a full-time

job,

you

preach

and

spend time with

people,

they,

they’re your two lanes.

Yeah,

That’s good. And

part

of that is,

I

mean,

you, ideally, you can develop some leaders who could go make

hospital

visits so

that

you’re

not

the

point person for all of those as well. [00:20:00]

But

again,

that takes.

Leadership

development is really

just

discipleship.

I

mean,

if, if,

we’re being honest, right? Sure. You,

if

you

wanna develop

leaders,

you start by

discipling

them

and

then

you

hand off

responsibilities

to them.

And

so preach

and

develop

people,

develop disciples,

pour

into people,

and,

and,

they’re

your

two

lanes.

And

you

know, if you’re a full-time guy,

spend

your time with your people when they

can

spend

time with you.

You,

so

when I was in an Air Force community

in the, the,

last

church I pastored

in

in

Alamogordo,

it

was

a,

there

was an Air Force base right

there.

I

mean,

I would

meet guys for

breakfast at 4:00 AM

because

they

said, that’s when I get off work.

That’s

when I

can meet,

okay,

then

let’s

meet. Then

I, I, don’t, I

don’t wanna make

you adapt

to

my schedule.

I’ll,

you

know,

and

cuz I can

say,

Hey,

I spent an hour and a

half with this

guy.

And

I’m going back

to bed.

I’ll see

you

at

the office

about 10

o’clock

in the

morning.

Um, right.

You just,

if

you have

the

freedom

to

do

that, great.

If

not,

[00:21:00] figure out a way

 to spend

some time

developing,

and

I

would say

develop

young men, because

if, as

you develop young men,

you’re

gonna develop

fathers

husbands

who

are pouring

into

their families, and I

think your

your church will reap

the Benefits Of

that,

Bob Bickford: one of

the things

that Southern Baptist

did

for

years

and

years is produce

curriculum

through

lifeway

and,

having come

to Christ in

my

middle

school

years,

and

then also working as a, a

student

intern.

When,

when

a

student would make

a

decision

for

Christ,

we would get

them,

uh, something

called

the

survival

kit.

Kyle Bueermann: Oh

yeah.

Right.

It was

just

Ralph neighbor.

Yeah. This a

little document

Bob Bickford: that they worked

through

it. yeah,

Yeah, yeah, You released that 2019. Yeah,

they So

the, the question

that I

have, and

this

is,

this

is one

I’m asked often and

I was

asked,

this question

at

a

conference the other day.

what

book do

you recommend on discipleship? Cause

I

was

making

the

point

that

there are

two areas. If, if

you

can

focus

on two areas,

it

will

help a

church renew.

these two areas are vital to that.

One

is discipleship

and

a defined discipleship development

process

or pipeline or

pathway.

And the

second

is

[00:22:00] evangelism,

which is

really

part

of

discipleship,

but

mm-hmm.

but

but that

combo specifically

breaking what

you’re

saying is

if

we

could make

disciples

JimBo Stewart: that

make

disciples,

Bob Bickford: that’s

exactly

what

I’m

saying.

Thank you,

Jimbo. But the guy

asked

me,

he

goes,

What

book do you recommend,

right? Like

there’s one

book

or

there’s a couple

books,

so

mm-hmm.

Kyle,

you, when you mentioned,

cuz we’ve, we’ve

said get

some guys and

disciple them.

Can

we get

granular

on

that? What

does that

mean?

What

does

that look like? Are we taking ’em through survival kits?

Are

we doing

spiritual disciplines

of

Godly

Man

by

Ark Hughes? Are

we

doing spiritual disciplines for life,

like

by

Don

Whitney?

Kyle Bueermann: What

are we doing?

I, I’m gonna

throw out

Tom

Rainer’s favorite

response

here.

Do

you

know

what

that

is?

It

depends. It

it

depends.

It

depends.

Yeah.

it

depends on

your

context.

I

mean,

For, it depends on

honestly, the

guys that you’re working with.

Some

guys

will do

really well

working

through curriculum,

working

through books.

I

honestly like

some

of

the best

times

that

I’ve

ever had, we

just

sat down with

a guy,

a

couple

of

guys

open

up

the Bible

and

had [00:23:00] kind

of a

rubric

of questions

that

we

would

ask

on

a passage.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

And, and

again, this

goes

back

to what

I

said earlier, you do not have to overcomplicate this.

Yeah.

Um,

because

if.

Uh,

so our church just came through the seven realities

of

experiencing God. We, we just

did that. even

that

scaled

down

version

is still

pretty robust. I

mean, there’s five days of homework.

the, there’s some guys that, that would not work with, right? And so if you say, Hey, you know, we’re

gonna

meet

for

an

hour and then

here’s

30 minutes of

homework

I

want

you

to do for

the next five

days,

that,

that’s not gonna happen.

But

if

you

just

said,

Hey, bring

your Bible,

let’s

get together.

For

breakfast.

For coffee,

let’s

sit down and we’re gonna go through

this

passage

in Mark’s gospel,

and

then

we’re

gonna ask

these

simple questions.

What

does this say about God?

What

does

this

say about man?

Is

there

a

sin

to confess?

Is

there a promise to

claim?

Is

there an example to follow?

Or

is

there

a

command

to obey?

Mm-hmm.

Let’s

just, let’s

just walk through those

questions

on

every

passage.

And what you do

in

addition to

that, is

you

give

your guys

a framework,

uh,

a hermeneutic

[00:24:00] for understanding

the

the Bible,

right?

And

then

they begin

to take

that,

take,

take

the Bible, and begin

to understand how to apply it to their lives.

And

you

don’t have

to complicate

it.

There’s

not

homework.

It’s,

let’s

get

together.

We’re

gonna

open up

the Bible

and

see

what

God says.

So

what,

what do you

use? I mean,

if

you

got

a

Bible,

you’ve

got what

you need.

It

worked for a

long

time before lifeway or any

publishing

house

existed.

And that’s not a knock

on any of

the, on any

of

the

material. There’s

wonderful discipleship material

out

there.

I

just,

I

think

we’ve relied

on,

we’ve relied on discipleship

material

to

make

disciples

when

it was never meant

to

do that. It was

the, the,

Bible

is

the

thing

that

makes disciples.

of

Bob Bickford: of Christ.

Right.

I love

that. And I think that’s

so

important for

us

to

understand specifically

for

the

normative

size

church

and

for

certain

populations that

are

gonna struggle with, you know, 12 week studies Yeah. Of chapters that are

20

pages long.

Right.

You

know, 30,

30

chapters long

and then, and so,

per chapter. So,

[00:25:00] yeah. I

mean, you think this

is great. So I, if, if

a

guy,

and here’s,

a, here’s

a hard question too, Kyle,

cause

I we

find

this

a

lot

too.

What

about the

pastor

who’s

never been

discipled

Kyle Bueermann: himself?

Bob Bickford: Mm,

Kyle Bueermann: Yeah. What

about

that

guy?

That’s good.

I

think

that’s where

he needs

a mentor.

where

where he needs somebody who’s pouring into him

as well.

And, and, and I had that

and

that’s

where

I came across

the,

what’s, what’s

called the sword method. What

does it say

about

God,

what

it

say

about

man?

Tho those questions,

was

through a,

a

guy

at

our state convention in New

Mexico who,

who

got a group of

pastors

together

and started

walking

through

some

discipleship training material and just said, Hey,

here’s.

Here’s

what

I’ve

seen work.

What

if

we applied this in our,

in

our churches? And,

with, with

a

method

like that, you

can,

if

you

got

a,

another

man in

your church together,

you

can disciple each

other in, in,

a way, which

I

mean, I think

there’s some,

if

we

believe in

the priesthood

of

the believer, he has as much of

the Holy Spirit

as

you

do too.

You

find him

a true believer

and

you

begin

to.

Kind

of co [00:26:00] disciple one another,

but,

but you’ve gotta have

somebody

that’s pouring into

you, uh,

I

would say

an

older,

more

seasoned leader

who is

pouring

into you as well. And,

being

a,

a

discipler slash mentor

in

your own life,

and

who can ask you hard

questions,

who, you know,

can

say simply, Hey,

you know, I know you

said

you, have

this

idea

about

your church. Here’s

why I wouldn’t do that right now.

Where

you

are.

Yeah. Find

somebody they can, they can,

pour into you.

and your leadership will

be,

will

grow

exponentially

if

you have somebody

that can

disciple

you

and

help

develop

you

as a leader.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

I think if

you’re

a

pastor

that

hasn’t

been

discipled,

you find

somebody

to disciple

you. Yep.

And

part of

that

is,

how

do

I

disciple

my people? Mm-hmm.

Right?

So find somebody that can disciple

you

in that.

And,

you

Kyle Bueermann: know,

talking

about

JimBo Stewart: all

these

books

we

ought to

Kyle Bueermann: one

of

them

we

gotta consider is,

Hey,

they

devoted themselves

So by

Dr.

Kyle Bierman.

it does

cover,

uh,

six, six big things. And, um,

each,

at the end

of each chapter, there’s,

a

couple of

discussion questions

or

reflection questions.

So

if

[00:27:00] you’re

reading

it through

with

a group,

you

you can discuss ‘

’em if

you’re just reading it

through by yourself. Some,

some

really good things

to,

uh,

reflect on.

And then

at

the

end

of each

chapter, there’s,

uh, suggestions

for

further reading

by

folks

who

are

a

lot smarter and

wrote

really,

really

good

books

that

you

should read.

After

you

read

mine,

Thanks

for

being

on the podcast,

Kyle.

Thanks.

Thanks

for having

me

guys.