[00:00:00] JimBo Stewart: Here we are back at the bootcamp, back at it again. I hope you’re ready for the next episode. this episode, we’ve got one of the newer Replant team members, but a longtime friend of the Replant Bootcamp, he’s been on, matter of fact, I think the first live recording, episode we ever did at the Missouri Baptist Convention a few years ago, when it was supposed to be like with an audience and we were going to record this episode in front of a live audience.

Instead, they just like set us in the middle of the exhibition hall. And,

Brandon Moore: we got relegated to a corner. Uh, but that’s alright. Uh, it was still a lot of fun.

JimBo Stewart: it was a lot of fun. That was a good episode on residency. I believe we talked about residencies and raising up leaders and, you at that point were working for the Missouri Baptist convention. so some things have changed for you. Real quick, Brandon, introduce yourself. Tell the listeners a little about who you are, what’s [00:01:00] changed, where you work now, how you have the best boss you’ve ever had, and, then what’s next on the horizon for your replanting world.

Brandon Moore: Yeah, so in October of last year, I stepped onto the replant team, from my Missouri Diabetes Convention role. Over the prior four years, I’ve been leading a revitalization and replanting network for the state of Missouri. And so I got to work alongside associational leaders and other state convention leaders and pastors throughout the state to figure out how we could catalyze a movement of revitalization and replanting.

And, in my new role with the replant team, it’s really my joy and privilege to get to come alongside associational leaders and state convention leaders to consider how can they catalyze a movement in their states. we love those partners on this team and, just believe they’re super strategic and so I’m, I’m really excited to just get to keep pouring into those guys.

and then, uh, while stepping into that role, on top of, leading my family, then married for [00:02:00]about 11 years. years coming up in June, to my wife, Becca and I have four boys, seven and under. Um, and so we’ve got, nuclear level energy in our house most of the time. so, on top of that, uh, we’re, we also, Lord’s been, calling us for, for some time to, be involved with replanting a and, we’re pursuing that in Knoxville, Tennessee.

we’re praying for the Lord to open the door for the right church to replant, but we’re partnering with both the Salt Network and the Calvary family of churches to really bring together two, I just huge needs in the life of, Southern Baptist work, in the life of the kingdom. one, to engage the college campus, which, has huge need to be reached, but also has huge potential to raise up leaders.

And as I’ve done the work with replanting revitalization, Jimbo, I know you and others have talked with, have experienced this, like. The gap in leadership for churches, the need for revitalizers and replanters, both pastorally and [00:03:00] just as leaders, healthy leaders in churches, is huge. And so, partnering with, Salt Network to engage a lot of potential leaders, but also Calvary Family who has, Uh, Mark Halleck, tons of experience replanting churches and, and so trying to really bring together, two things in a unique way.

and so we’re, we’re just praying the Lord’s been leading the way, in ways that we couldn’t have ever fathomed. So it really is, it’s something that only he can do at the end of the day. So

JimBo Stewart: I think my favorite part of that is that you have with four boys, that are very young, moved from Missouri to Knoxville and essentially just like dropped everything off in the house

Brandon Moore: yeah,

JimBo Stewart: and then moved really to Colorado and I do love this, that you’re taking some time to sit with the Calvary family of churches, learn, let that culture that has influenced you already a [00:04:00] lot, continue So that you can take that DNA with you to Knoxville. So you’re there for a few months before you head back to Knoxville, while you’re also using technology to develop a core team and get ready to replant a church at Knoxville. I mean, it’s a, it’s something you could only do. In like today’s day and age, but I love it.

Brandon Moore: Yeah, for real, for real. Yeah. I’m not the only one leading the way with the church plant. We’ve got one of the co pastors in Columbia, Missouri. And so, yeah, I mean, technology makes all this craziness possible. And, but the Lord’s has been building a team and, some awesome ways and bringing together some great, folks.

So we’ve told our boys like, Hey, we’re just on one big adventure after another right now. So let’s just get after it. Yeah.

JimBo Stewart: of this time and the great thing about kids is they won’t remember the stressful stuff that you and Becca will remember They’ll just remember the fun stuff

Brandon Moore: That’s right. Yeah.[00:05:00]

JimBo Stewart: Well, look, i’m so glad we got to introduce you a little bit Part of that is if we have any associational leaders state convention leaders listening man, we’re excited to have brandon on the team replant team and he’s your your connect.

 him with with you the team that he gets to lead on the replant team of building relationships with network leaders out there so that we can come alongside and help you in any way we can. So reach out, let us know if we can help. one of the things that the main thing I really want to talk to you about today, though, Brandon is.

You’ve done a lot of work and research and writing and thinking on how do we better understand what we mean when we say church health. I was looking into it, and I think I’m sure you could probably correct me if I’m wrong, we didn’t really even start Researching or using the word church health as a, as like a, a phrase or a topic until like, I think the sixties or seventies and then from there it kind of has taken legs and that’s where, you know, [00:06:00] revitalization replanting has all kind of come out of that.

But obviously the idea of healthy churches has existed for as long as churches have existed. But it hasn’t really been a focused area of at least academic research until the 70s. You have continued in that vein, did your PhD in that. why dive into understanding church health when there there’s already a lot of resources and books and other things out there addressing this subject.

What angle was it that you felt like you wanted to come at it from that was unique?

Brandon Moore: Yeah, so one of the passion points for me heading into PhD work was Was church revitalization, replanting? Well, replanting wasn’t even really a word at that point when I entered Ph. D. stuff. I think the replant team was basically just the beginning of a dream when I started Ph. D. work. but even revitalization was just starting to get traction then.

everything out there that I was reading and picking up was on [00:07:00] how, how do you get it done? Or stories of how someone else got it done. and, it’s really helpful stuff. Like, I mean, I was eating it up. It was really helpful. But at the end of the day, I just kept going, like, how do I know like which approach is right or which approach is right for each context that I might come into.

And, as I was trying to. Just dive into as much of the research as possible. One of the things that became clear was there just wasn’t, a clear definition of what we’re aiming for. we all, like we all say church health, like we’re shooting for church health. But we assume that everyone has the same framework for that or what that means When a lot of times for some people church health really means, you just numbers like hey Are you are you growing or for others it means?

you know, expository preaching and, evangelistic engagement and things you do, right. Which those are all like, all of that’s important when it comes to health. Uh, and that’s partly how you can [00:08:00] begin to measure health in some ways. But, but like what is, what is it that we’re aiming for? was one of the big questions I had.

And then on top of that, like, and what I tried to write on in my dissertation was why should we? revitalized churches in the first place. and, really, I believe that’s rooted in who God has created the church to be. and in that study, that’s where we really began to get into, um, defining out church health.

And from there, like, that this is what a church is intended to be. This is why we should revitalize churches.

JimBo Stewart: So you talk about how, we have to, we have their, their problems with that target you know, the target seems to change or it’s incomplete or they’re competing ideas, it’s unclear. Why does it matter, uh, that we get the target right when we’re talking about this subject?

Brandon Moore: when it comes to the target or what is church health [00:09:00] or, you know, what, what does it mean to be a healthy church? I think, as we leave it just kind of vague, we can end up doing a lot of good things, but not ending up anywhere in particular. and, um, I think God. God gives us pretty clearly in scripture what we’re supposed to be going after.

But the reality is, is when we don’t have the target in mind, there can be devastating consequences. I often go to this illustration of this Olympian named Matt Emmons, in the 2004 Olympics in Athens, where, he was a rifle shooter for us. surefire gold medal, was, was stepping up for his last shot.

hit a bullseye. Like all you had to do is basically hit the target. He was going to be gold, hit a bullseye in fact, but it didn’t register. so he’s getting kind of like upset with the judges as like, what’s going on? Why is it not giving me a score? and then the judges come back to him and says, look, you cross fired and hit the wrong target.[00:10:00]

So he felt totally off the metal stand from surefire gold to totally off the middle stand. And we know this in like, every area of our lives. Like if you don’t have, if you’re not aiming well for the right target, you know, if you value, career success over family or you value, you know, whatever it may be over what God has for us and his priorities, then it can have devastating consequences on our lives and ministries.

And, and yet oftentimes our churches, dying churches have not thought well about what they’re aiming for. a few ways that I think about that is like, churches, like when it comes to planning, like they just, they come back in with their calendar from last year and it’s like, Hey, what was on the calendar from June last year?

Let’s put it, let’s figure out where it works in the dates for June this year, you know? And it’s not that they’re doing bad things. It’s just, they’re just doing the same things because they don’t have a, a clear target that they’re going after. or you have divisions in churches because. there’s competing targets about what, I mean, that’s where like worship wars happened, [00:11:00] right?

Like that was, that’s what it was all about. Like we got to get to contemporary worship or we got to maintain traditional worship. And because there were competing targets, divisions happen rather than a full healthy picture of what, what God would have for his church. That’s not based purely on a style of worship, right?

So I mean, that’s just a couple of ways, but to just see that there’s so many churches, there’s a lack of intentionality. is part of the reason that they’re not going anywhere

or

they’re going

backwards.

JimBo Stewart: so what is the target then? What, what target should we be aiming at? When we say church health, how do we know what we’re aiming at?

Brandon Moore: I would break it down in a fairly simple framework that honestly, like it’s not going to sound super revelatory, right? I mean, but, but was trying to just get to a place of like, what’s clear, basic framework for who God’s created the church to be. so this isn’t going to sound super impressive, but, but I think it, it gets to simplicity that the [00:12:00] Lord has for us.

First off, he’s created us as his people with certain identities. Um, and I can talk about those in a moment, but those identity, like we are his people and he’s, he’s given us identities in Christ that we are these things and we’re becoming and growing more fully into those, those things. Then those identities though are built on health, like healthy foundations.

and so there’s three healthy foundations that we see and then three structures that there, those identities are built through. and so, with the, the identities, and we start, you know, we start there with identities, because, you know, believe who and why we exist, proceed like what we do.

and there’s just tons of material on what we do. And I think We’re, we’re very much like into, Hey, how do we get the job done? Like Southern Baptist in particular, we’re so [00:13:00] good at, at emphasizing mission and getting things done. I love it. Like I’m a Southern Baptist from the womb, right? Like, and so, like it is in me and in my blood to be all about mission and getting the task of reaching the nations and discipling them well.

but like. If we divorce what we do from who we are, then we lose the why we lose the motivation. and, we also can lose our way and how we even pursue that. Um, and so that’s why we start with identities that flow into functions.

Um, and, um, so, uh, real quick, just the identities, we can get to the, the foundations and structures, but the identities are like, we are worshipers of God.

All right, that’s our, that’s our number one relationship, right? So our, when we come into Christ and as God’s people as a whole, our first and foremost identity is we’re worshipers of him. There’s no greater purpose that we’ve been created for than to glorify God. And so. [00:14:00] As God’s people, we’re created as worshipers of him.

Um, and then number two though, we have, we have a new relationship with God’s people then. and we are family with one another. Right? We’re children of God and so we’re brothers and sisters in Christ. that changes how we relate to those who have trusted in Jesus. But also when we come to Christ, it changes how we relate to the world around us.

Right? We’re now given a new identity. as missionaries. the new Testament uses the word ambassadors and witnesses and a whole host of things, but we sum it up with the word missionaries. And, and so this, I mean, those are all the relationships we can have, right? with persons, but the father, son, Holy spirit, we’re worshipers with one another.

We’re family. And with the world around us, we’re missionaries. And those relational, very purposeful identities, are shaped, should shape. and cause us to consider how do, how are we growing in these identities in everything we do as a [00:15:00] church? How are we living these identities out in everything we do?

JimBo Stewart: I appreciate that you start with identities rather than functions or behaviors. It seems like a lot of church health assessments and metrics either measure, the numbers, the, the out, the output put of, of the input of our behavior or the input of our behavior. How often are we reading our Bible? How often are we sharing the gospel?

and those sorts of things. But, honestly, biblically, I think we have to stand first. And in the identity of who God’s called us to be, but then also neuroscience has shown us that, our behavior is most shaped by our identity. and what, where our identity is rooted. And it’s one of those where I believe that brain science just backs up biblical truth, right?

It just, it’s, it’s God’s truth. in reality and the way that things go. And so we go for the, you go through those three identities though, and those are built [00:16:00] on three foundations. and so we’re still not even getting fully to function yet, but there are three foundations that the identities are built.

Talk to us about that. Yeah.

Brandon Moore: of identities because I think the neuroscience, also our culture, is all about identity, right? But it’s build your own identity. It’s how do you self create it? But the Lord has given us an identity that we receive. And that’s like, it’s an objective identity.

that we are this in Christ. Um, now you may not be very healthy as this, but you are to be this. And so, you know, I also think like it’s just a part of the reality that you see fleshed out like, uh, even some of the neuroscience piece that you mentioned. Like comes out in the language of dying churches a lot of times.

I mean, have you ever as a pastor like, Changed the bulletin or something as simple as changing the bulletin, right? Or rearranged like [00:17:00] where you do something in the order of service. I, when we did that on a couple different things, I didn’t have church members come to me and tell me that’s not how we do things around here.

I had people come to me and say, that’s not who we are.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, yeah,

Brandon Moore: It’s not who we are because the way we worship, like, is integrally tied to our identity as worshippers, whether, I mean, my church members were not thinking about it on that like language level of identities, but that was just like, I mean, they were just articulating something that was just core to like their understanding of who they were.

And, and for them, the way they worshiped. because we focus so much on functions in particular, the way we worship actually became our identity rather than the fact that we are worshippers and that can be played out in lots of different ways. So

JimBo Stewart: say something like, when we live in a false identity, it will lead to faulty [00:18:00]behaviors?

Brandon Moore: yes, exactly. And I think that’s, I mean, that’s, that is what you’re seeing a lot of times in dying churches and that is in particular, I think the weakness of focusing just on functions, because we. we wrap that up with a fault, like it becomes our false identity. and then we can’t, we can’t let go.

Like when, I mean, people should defend their identity. well, particularly the identity they’ve been discipled in. unfortunately we’ve often discipled people in a functional identity rather than an intrinsic, like God given identity.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, that’s good. All right. Talk to us about the foundation, the three foundations.

Brandon Moore: Yeah, so, these are real simple. I’ve never had any, like, Southern Baptist Church argue with me on these. Alright, uh, it’s the Gospel, Scripture, and Prayer. Um, I mean, the reality is, is like, everything in the Christian life is built on these. It’s being totally and utterly dependent on these. upon, the [00:19:00] good news about Jesus and this is what the entire church is to be centered upon.

and I mean, this is what it means to see people come into the kingdom is to proclaim that good news and they respond to it. But it’s also how we as God’s people continue to grow. We put off. The old and we put on the new, right? I mean, that’s the like we throw around the term gospel centered a lot But the the essence of it is for like that.

Hey, it’s it’s both how you’re saved and how you’re being saved in Christ of being sanctified that is and so the Gospels foundation and And then scripture obviously, I mean that’s where we know and understand the gospel, but the inerrant authoritative inspired word of God, is the final authority.

And in dying churches, like, you know, we’ll, we’ll give a scent to the idea that the Bible is our authority, but oftentimes it’s traditions, opinions, preferences, and other things that have become the authority. And that’s where the unhealth lies.

JimBo Stewart: [00:20:00] Yeah, I would, I would agree. That’s, I would say one of the things I have observed in the replant that I led and then the countless replants that I’ve gotten to either consult or work with or coach is pretty consistently, there is an intellectual ascent to I’ve never had anyone argue with me that scripture is authoritative.

It is inerrant. It is inspired. It is the authority for us in how we’re supposed to lead and operate in our churches, yet in practice, in an action, it’s, it’s really hard for us. I mean, in myself included, to, to really align with what, scripture has called us to. And I re that’s why I think really one of the most important.

first steps in a replant or revitalization is reestablishing scripture as the actual authority and decision maker and filter through which everything goes through before [00:21:00] we press the gas on it.

Brandon Moore: yeah. I mean, and I think one simple way for pastors to do that is I think every pastor would affirm like the authority of the preached word and we’ve got a lead out and in our church with the preached word But like in order to re establish the authority of the word in the life of the church Like it can’t just be in the pulpit on Sunday.

It’s got to be like every leadership meeting you’re having You’re starting with the word when people are asking, you know, okay How are we gonna do this or should we do this or that then? Um, coming to them with the question of, well, what does God’s word say about that? and, just always directing people back to that.

I think that’s one of the huge ways we just, we reestablish that

JimBo Stewart: And that’s, I would throw back to the episode we had with Dr. Joe Crider talking about scripture guided worship and, even, even in that aspect. And so I don’t want to take up much of our time talking about that. You can, I’ll link that in the show notes, but go back to his book, to, to, to that concept of letting [00:22:00] scripture be what also guides us in the worship service.

All right. With just a few minutes left. So you’ve got three identities, three foundations, and then you go to three structures.

Brandon Moore: Yeah. So I mean, when you’ve got healthy foundations, you’ve got healthy, you know, but to get fully healthy identities, you’ve got to have healthy structures as well. Um, and you know, churches are going to do things in a lot of different ways, but there are, there are three structures. The Lord gifts his church with, that are pretty clear on some of the, at least the most basic of levels.

Um, and that’s leadership, membership, and discipleship that we’re to, we’re to have. intentional, um, clear pathways for developing leaders, for, helping members to, to covenant with one another and to live out those covenant, uh, relationships and commitments to one another. And then, uh, a clear disciple making pathway in the life of our church, that everything we do is to be oriented around the great commission.

[00:23:00] Right. And so how are we intentionally making disciples one step after another? Um, and so, how Each of these three structures helps to build up God’s people as worshipers, family, and missionaries to varying degrees, um, and, and are essential to that.

JimBo Stewart: how does a pastor, listening to this, that’s going, okay, I’ve been, I’m at this church, it’s First Baptist, whateverville, and it’s been declining for 37 years. And, you know, I hear this and I, they go, yeah, that’s all sounds great. What do I do with that? What, how do I, how do I take that and turn that into what do I, what steps do I take as a leader in listening to this podcast episode to help realign our church to these identities and foundations and structures.

Brandon Moore: mean, one of the The exciting things I think we’re working on as a team is that we are going to be, [00:24:00] bringing out an assessment, that churches can use with their leaders to really self assess their church on, on this basic healthy church, target. it’s an assessment that we developed out while I was in Missouri based off this, target, that I teased out, earlier.

And it really helps, the point of the assessment is to, to really help churches to assess not just what do I believe is true, or what would I affirm, but, but how to live that out both, heart attitudes and behavioral actions. and so that’s coming, granted that doesn’t help right now.

So I would say like the most practical way, like right now that you begin to do this is, as pastors, you guys. you know, and understand these concepts, or if there’s one that, you feel like you got to get some more, up to speed on that’s fine, but, but in general, like, you’ve got a good idea of what these identities, foundations and structures are.

And so just take some time to tease out like your own two sentences about what it means. For each of these. and then how is your church, you know, what are some [00:25:00] markers of that in your church? And just like ask a few leaders then to help you assess like, where, where are we at? Like, if this is who we’re to be and this is the foundation we’re supposed to be on, be built on.

And these are the structures we’re supposed to have. Like what are our strengths? Start with the strengths. ’cause , I mean, at a church in decline, it, it’s, it’s so tempting oftentimes to, to start with the weaknesses. ’cause you can see them. But, but start with the strengths because like God has, has been working in that church, in some way.

And so find something to celebrate, but then be really honest about what are the areas of weakness and try to prioritize. so you got, these are the weaknesses. Okay. Where do we need to start? what’s the thing that if we don’t, Begin to address this and, and if it’s a foundation issue, that’s where you got to start.

Right. But if you don’t begin to address, you know, whatever it is, then it’s going to get in the way of addressing everything else. And so just begin to prioritize [00:26:00] and just begin to chip away at it. Right. I mean, the work of revitalization, replanting is not an overnight deal. and so just identify what you’re going to go after and start to be intentional.

That’s one of the biggest things, in pursuing revitalization and replanting. I think my church in Oak Ridge, Missouri, back in the day would, would have told you the number one word they heard, uh, for me outside of Jesus and, the gospel is intentionality. and that’s because we, like, we’ve just got to be intentional about where we believe the Lord’s leading us and begin to take one step after another.

The Renew and Resound Guide.

JimBo Stewart: Renew and resound guide. I would recommend that. I’ve actually been reading that as part of my devotional, ever since I was at the resound summit and really appreciate the way that it’s structured around these three identities, three [00:27:00] foundations and three structures. And then also how there are daily readings, except for like on Sunday, there’s like a way to think through like, what do I do when I show up at church today?

What’s a, what’s another way I can reframe. So I’d recommend that. Man, we’ll probably have you on to talk more about this in days to come. but I, I would encourage the listeners check the links I’m going to put in the show notes to some of this stuff, that could be helpful to you. and then if you could guys continue to pray for Brandon as he is.

Leading his family, leading us on our team, and leading In a Plant, Replant towards Knoxville. and so as we come to a close, Brandon, would you close by just praying for all of those that are listening that they could pursue healthy, God glorifying churches?

Brandon Moore: Yeah, let’s pray. Father, I just, I thank you for, the men and women, listening to this podcast that just have a passion to see their church renewed. Lord, for the pastors that are listening to this podcast that, Lord, No, there’s things that are off. and they just, they have a deep, holy discontent in their heart [00:28:00] to see their church healthy.

Lord, I pray that you’d help them, to clarify, for their people, what it, what it is, to be a healthy church. And, so that they can begin to lead the way forward towards that arm and arm with their people. God, I pray you’d give them wisdom and clarity as they, they lead the way that you would help them to identify what’s most important to begin getting to work on?

Cause it can feel like an overwhelming, task ahead, Lord. So we just pray, or that you’d bless pastors, lay leaders alike, as they seek, your glory through the renewal of their church, and the good of their community, God, and I pray all of this in Jesus name. Amen.

JimBo Stewart: Amen. Thanks for coming on, Brandon.

Brandon Moore: Yeah, it’s good to be here.