JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at it again, back at the bootcamp. And today I’m excited to have, another special guest from the replant team. Dr. David Jackson, who has been doing this for, quite a while, brings a lot of, wisdom and experience and, just a great joy to be around. Grateful for David, and all that he does for NAMM and.

interims and serving local associations and everything. So, David, welcome to the boot camp. Tell us a little bit about yourself. no,

David Jackson: you very much, Jimbo. It’s good to be with you. It’s an honor and a privilege. You say you’ve been doing it a while. You’re, you’re basically just saying I’m an old man.

JimBo Stewart: no.

David Jackson: pretty true. That’s pretty true. But, uh, yeah, I, I’ve just enjoyed the ministry that God’s given me. this year, 45 years since I was ordained in the ministry and I’ve had the opportunity and privilege of pastoring churches and planting churches, been able to minister from coast to coast with the North American mission board started my.

My journey with them out in the Los Angeles area, headed back to Boston and worked in the [00:01:00] Boston and New England area for a number of years, worked in the Washington, D. C. area also. Much of that was in church planting world. Had some chances to, teach some courses at Fuller Seminary and at Southern and as a, some of their distance learning sites in the day back before they.

Went to the streaming method that they do and now I’m down in South Carolina and enjoying very much working with the replant team it’s been a lot of fun to be able to be a part of seeing churches that are reclaiming God’s glory across the nation and so That’s kind of who I am. Um, my wife and I are celebrating our 40th anniversary next year.

So this will be 39, in the summertime this year. It’s been great. Joyce from Jacksonville, Florida. I was born in Alabama. We met in new Orleans. So we’ve got some connections that, uh, you’d be familiar with both in Jacksonville and New Orleans. And we have three grown children and expecting our first grandchild [00:02:00] this summer.

So that’s the biggest news of all, I suppose.

JimBo Stewart: That is huge news. uh, you have lived and served in a variety of contexts. Like you said, coast to coast. And,

David Jackson: I can’t keep a job. That’s the problem. I keep moving from one thing to another. I like to say I’m kind of like Brock Holt. If you’re a Red Sox fan, folks out there would know Brock Holt was the ultimate utility player. I mean, he could do a little bit of everything. He was never exceptional at anything, but he was good enough to plug holes, just anywhere you needed him.

And that’s kind of me. I just feel like the ministry God’s given me has been able to step in and help like you said interim pastorates I’ve done 20 of those over the years in a variety of different places the senior pastor collegiate work Church planting teaching on and on and on so just a little bit of everything.

It’s all been good.

Lord’s blessing

JimBo Stewart: you are an excellent utility player. And [00:03:00] so, I’m, I’m grateful for you. one of the things that you’ve been working on, for a little while is, some resourcing and training on kind of the, the spiritual renewal side of church revitalization, which we love to talk about on the bootcamp a lot.

but in particular, there’s one resource that you have. on. So introduce that, concept and why it’s important.

David Jackson: Sure. I think it came out of the whole experience that we recognized with our team that we needed to be dealing with soul care issues, both for replanter and revitalization pastors. and for congregations that they get fatigued and they get worn out and burned out too over time and that that causes them to drift from their first love which is really where we’re headed in this conversation because we felt the need to help them recapture that first love that if they would fall in love with Jesus again or if they would renew that relationship that [00:04:00] that would soften their heart where they can hear him respond to him and thrive again.

Like they did in times past. So I think that’s where it all came from. And about a year ago, I had the opportunity to sit down with Claude King. Some of our listeners will know that name. Claude King is the co author of Experiencing God and Fresh Encounter with Henry Blackaby. And he’s written a number of other materials as well.

And, Claude has that kind of heart that wants to see renewal happen in God’s people, in their congregational life, in the church as a whole. And so, learned a lot from him, and we’ve kind of taken that and developed that into some material that we’ll be talking about today.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I love that concept. I mean, Clifton often talks about warming their hearts back to the gospel. And, I was at a event in the Mississippi Delta recently, and there was a Q and a session afterwards in I felt like I was becoming fairly repetitive in my answers [00:05:00] because, like every question they brought, it was like, it just hadn’t, you know, not the, and this is not necessarily the answer to every question, although it is the answer to almost every question and discipleship and revitalization is we got to disciple people back to the heart of the gospel.

I mean, ultimately that’s the work of revitalization. It’s, it’s far more about our. sanctification than it is strategies and systems and those things in place. So I, I value, appreciate the perspective you bring to that. And so reflect on that a little bit for us.

David Jackson: I would say that’s, that’s absolutely, we can’t just, walk away from that even in this conversation. I mean, I think we have to underscore that, again. So let me say it, uh, to our listeners that if you’re looking for a formula or you’re looking for a process, you’re looking for some silver bullet out there, there’s not, it’s not there.

Every situation is different, but they’re all based on a relationship with Jesus Christ and what Jesus is looking for. He’s looking to woo you back [00:06:00] into that close relationship with him. Whereas he disciples you, you follow him and what he wants to do in and through your church. And it’s going to be different in your church than any other church.

because he knows it’s his church, right? He knows what he needs to happen there and he needs you close by his side. He needs you listening to him. He needs your heart. Strangely warmed by the experiences that, that he wants to share with you so that the passion and the love will flow out of your life into the life of others.

So I don’t want us to hurry past that because I really think we have way too many books out there that try to give us a strategy or a plan for revitalization. What we need is a relationship with the one who revitalizes and that’s the Lord Jesus Christ.

JimBo Stewart: We’ll talk about one of the things I’ve heard you say is if you want to see your church renewed, then that has to start with you. talk about the importance of renewal starting with the pastor.

David Jackson: [00:07:00] Yeah. Thank you. I think that that grew out of my conversation as I started talking to pastors. about this resource and saying, Hey, we’re working on something for churches to fall in love with Jesus again. And almost to a person, they go, wow, that would be great. That’s so needed. And they recognize the need.

In other words, as they deal with their congregations that they’re, they’re seeing that sense in which man, if they would just fall in love with Jesus, it’d be great. But then what I began to realize was that, um, if it’s going to happen in the life of congregation, it’s got to start in the life of its leaders.

And that means you pastor, that means, uh, you elders, the, the ones who are actually seeking this or sensing that there’s this need in the congregation. Uh, are your hearts that way toward God? Are you, eager and anxious to spend time with him? Because this is really just kind of a unfolding of spiritual disciplines in your own life, you know?

How much time do [00:08:00] you spend with God? Are you eager and anxious to get into his presence? Do you listen to him and his voice? Are you just doing all the talking? You know, those kind of things. Are you aware and sensing him speaking to you through the community of faith? And on and on. I mean There are just so many things there.

Are we sitting at his feet like Mary was? Or are we just caught up in the Martha life style as leaders in the church that so easily can cause us to be distracted and distanced from our own relationship with Christ? Because Here’s the deal. As an old guy, I realize more and more every day that people are going to follow my example more than anything I say that they need somebody to model it for them.

And if I’m not living a life that’s close to the Lord, if I’m not passionate about my relation, if I’m not eager to get into his presence, they’re going to sense that at least at a subconscious level and think, [00:09:00] okay, this is always about just checking off boxes. No, it’s not. It’s about a passion for Jesus, and that has to be cultivated in your own life, just by sitting at his feet, allowing him to speak into your heart, and being aware of his presence all the time around you, working in and through you.

JimBo Stewart: know, I think about that story with Mary and Martha, and I’ve always been struck by the phrasing of, it says that Martha was distracted with much surfing. and, you know, and so, I think for a lot of ministry leaders, that is a real temptation, uh, to get real, real busy with ministry work, uh, in order. And it’s almost like I don’t feel spiritually at peace or ease, and I don’t like what’s going on.

So at the very least I can say I worked hard and I did a lot. And, and our hope starts to become more [00:10:00] in all these things that we’re doing. And we figured it’s almost like, well, at least I’ll get an A for effort. And I can show that I put in the work. when the, the thing that Jesus says is Mary has chosen the right thing and it will not be taken away from her.

Just to sit and, and be there at, at the feet of Jesus. How, how, David, how does, how does a pastor, how does a church, how does a congregation, how do they drift away? How do they abandon that first love? What does that mean? What does that look like?

David Jackson: Clifton says all the time that, we numb the pain of our struggle through activity. And so I think that even what, uh, we talked about just a moment ago with Martha’s experience, I think the busyness of life often is a substitute in which we’re trying to, perhaps. Allow our activity, our work, our effort take the place of our relationship.

In some ways, for [00:11:00] some of us at least, it’s easier to do that than to sit and wait on Jesus to respond. I mean, we’re in an instant gratification culture, right? And so we want to be doing, we’re often evaluated by how much we do in life. We, at least we think that. And yet what Jesus is saying is depend on me, allow me to speak into your life.

And so we need to take more of the posture of a Samuel who says, speak Lord, your servant is listening. So we can still serve just like Martha, but the better part is to sit at his feet. And know what we’re supposed to be doing. And so I think when you get to the book of revelation, the passage of scripture in chapter two, where it talks about you’ve left or forsaken your first love, you see all kinds of activity going on there.

They’re toiling, they’re laboring, they’re working hard. They’re persevering. All of these words are used of what’s happening in their [00:12:00] life, uh, as a congregation. And yet Jesus says in the midst of all of that, they’ve abandoned their first love. And so that’s very telling comment, it seems, because, man, Baptists, as I know, Baptists are a whole lot about activity, you know, and, we need to recognize that that’s, that’s a poor, it’s a pale substitute for sitting at the feet of Jesus and, allowing him to cultivate and grow our love for him.

So that’s where it starts. I think that recognition of the need and our leadership, ringing the clarion call for us to join him in getting back close to the heart of Jesus.

JimBo Stewart: How do we recognize that it’s happening? So that’s where we talked about, we’ve talked about how, like, what that looks like. To be distracted with much serving in the business of ministry, toiling away, doing things. And so if we’re doing all this stuff, how do we as [00:13:00]leaders recognize, okay, we we’ve, we’ve drifted away from our first love and we’ve got to do something about it.

David Jackson: Well, I think that, you’ll have some of these elements that I’m going to mention here. Some of these characteristics that are probably. Uh, happening in the, in the life of your church. And they would be telltale signs as it were. They, they, they get hard hearted or calloused in their responsiveness to needs and concerns in the community.

they’re only focused on their own needs. They’re contentious, or they’re divisive, in relationship with one another. They can be rebellious against God ordained authority. trying to lead them, pastors and such. Fatigued, unfocused, operating out of a sense of duty or obligation, no joy, no celebration.

All these things are kind of signs. That, uh, their heart is drifting, it’s moving away from, that warm relationship with Jesus where it’s sensitive and, and [00:14:00] listening to what He would say to them.

JimBo Stewart: Okay. So we, we know what it is. We’ve recognized it. What are the first steps? What do we do? So if a pastor’s listening and he hears those list of characteristics, he hears what we’ve been describing and he goes, yeah, that’s, that’s where we’re at. what’s the first step? What does he do?

David Jackson: Well, I think the prescription is really from Jesus Himself. He says, remember how far you’ve fallen. And then he says to repent, and then he says to renew that relationship, especially with the things that you did at first. So, I think there’s something there at the end that he tells us about what we did at first that we need to be reflective on, but we also need to be spending time evaluating and remembering where we were before.

So, those two ends of, the book ends of what Jesus has to say himself. To the church at Ephesus become our best signals as to what we should be doing. So we need to be thinking about when we came into a relationship with Christ, when this church was started, we were [00:15:00] probably pretty passionate. We were probably pretty excited.

We were probably telling other people, we were probably wanting to do anything we could do to devour his word and spend time with him and to listen to him and to learn and those kinds of things. And honestly, Because I was involved in church planning for so long, I know that when those church start, most of what they do is outreach and relationship building, both with God and then for God, as they connect those relationships to a relationship where he invites them to know him personally as well.

So I think, I think those are the real keys as to Maybe clear some of your calendar. I know a church in Maryland that every, this is only quarterly, but every fifth week, they remove everything from the calendar that week and says, you need to spend more time with Christ this week and maybe with your family.

We don’t need a whole bunch of activity. We need to [00:16:00] stop. It’s kind of a sabbatical experience for the church congregation. And I would think if a church is really drifting into duty and obligation and hard heartedness and you know my agenda that kind of thing then you’re doing too much and You’ve got all these competing Ideas of what ought to be going on you need to stop slow down and just get back to spending time with Jesus for a while

JimBo Stewart: Man, that’s a good word. it reminds me of last week’s episode with Brandon Moore, you talk about the relationships, going back to the relationships. He, he defines in some of the stuff he’s researched kind of the three relationships that spell out the identity of who God has called us to be. And that we are worshipers, we are a family and we are missionaries.

and, so getting back to those, the relationship as, as worshipers with God, sitting at the feet of Jesus, with one another, [00:17:00] living out the one another’s amongst each other within our body. And then as missionaries into our community, like let’s get back to those relationships.

David Jackson: Boy, Jimbo, that’s such a great word. And I think that’s exactly the way the Lord shares it with us in the scripture. That this primary relationship is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. And if He’s not our primary love, then we are we are substituting something else, but if that is our primary love, if he is number one, then we will be able to love each other as we should, our neighbor as ourself.

And out of that, our service flows, what we do for him. It’s all a part of our calling as well, is it not? We’re called first into a relationship with him, and that’s a very intimate personal relationship, but it’s a corporate. Relationship to and as we’re called into that relationship with him, we have brothers and sisters in Christ.

We need to love on them We’re [00:18:00] told that to love one another more than any other one another in the scripture It’s supposed to be a passion in our hearts and we see Jesus reflected in them, too And we’re to reflect him And then we do, but we live in this, you know, utilitarian culture that puts such emphasis on what we do that we men especially define ourselves by our jobs, our careers, and instead it ought to be by our relationship to Christ.

You know, we are a worshipper, we are a son or a daughter of the king, and that’s what gives value to our lives.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. So as a pastor, as a ministry leader is trying to initiate this and, and bring us back into those relationships, live out those identities, return to that first love doing the first things, what are some of the obstacles they’re gonna run into in this process?

David Jackson: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think this is one of the [00:19:00] challenges that they’re going to have to address is to understand that beyond busyness that we’ve already talked about, just a plethora of activity that is probably being substituted for spending time with Jesus. I think you need to think about preferences, personal agendas.

That may not be nearly as focused on what God wants to have happen through his great commission and great commandment and things. as what we as a church have decided this is what, where we’re going to hang our hat and such. So I think you have to watch for preferences and be careful to make sure.

that those preferences are not rivaling or challenging God’s agenda for the church. Now, most of us would say it’s not, but, you know, when sailboats go out, in the water, they tack back and forth. They don’t go straight. They have to move a little bit to one direction, then a little bit back the other direction, a little bit.

Like this to catch the wind and go, if we’re going to catch the [00:20:00] Holy Spirit, we need to recognize that our goal is the same. But if we keep going one direction, we’re drifting off. Even if it’s half a degree, it keeps drifting, drifting, drifting. And we don’t even realize it until often it’s almost too late.

So we need to make sure that we are still focused where we need to be. And it’s not our preferences driving us, but it’s God’s purpose. that’s driving us. And all of our churches have a purpose in mind. I think when preferences get in the way, it becomes a form of idolatry. And I said to you last week, and you affirmed this, that when we fall in love with our system, we have given up the right to be able to improve it.

JimBo Stewart: Hmm.

David Jackson: it has become so special and so precious to us that, it becomes a form of idolatry. We like what we do, the way we do it, more than who we’re doing it for or what it is. he says to us about how we ought to be doing it. So I think that’s a challenge preferences. I think you [00:21:00] have to also recognize that disobedience takes place in the form of pride and arrogance, when we’ve been doing it well for a while.

And I think most churches that go through life cycles, they, they have a period of time where they’ve been doing some things pretty well. Right. And yet, when they get it to that place where it’s really humming, they kind of lock in and can exchange effectiveness for efficiency. They want to just keep doing what they’re doing.

And at that point, it’s almost hubris that takes over. In fact, I have some folks that say to me, It’s not the decline of a church that indicates that it’s in trouble. It’s that point in the ascent that indicates they are headed for trouble. And, uh, my goodness, look at Jim Collins, how the mighty fall. And he talks about that in the business world happens in church world too, right?

And so when pride takes over and we say, Nope, we’re not going to change anything. We’re not going to let this happen. I can tell you about a [00:22:00] personal experience. When we were a church in Massachusetts, we were still in the portable stage of our church plant, and we had to make a decision about changing locations, going to a new location because it was going to afford us new opportunities and possibilities, and one of the big mistakes I made was allowing the whole congregation to have a voice in that decision.

And just like the children of Israel in the wilderness at Kadesh Barnea, they said, nope, we can’t do that, and it was a wrong move on our part because, at that point it was as though we had been disobedient to the opportunity God had given us to, to join him in the work, to take it to another level.

And it started sowing some seeds of decline that were not. So I think disobedience that shows itself mostly in the form of pride or arrogance that we know what we’re doing and, you know, we got it from here, God, you know, you, you can count on [00:23:00] us to keep doing what we’re doing. God, Christ is calling us to a new thing.

I want to do a new thing in you, you know, he gets all the glory then. Right. And then finally, I would say, I think if we’re unrepentant or we mask past sins, uh, they, they’ve been covered up or not dealt with properly. Then I think that has a way of showing itself in the life of congregation down the, down the road.

And, it creates a hard heartedness, an unrepentant spirit, and again, I take you back to Jesus prescription, repentance is absolutely necessary. There’s no substitute for it. Every church that he speaks to in Revelation 2 and 3 that he critiques, he says, you must repent. You must repent.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think it’s, you know, goes back to the idea that it’s about sanctification and not systems. I think part of the reason we gravitate towards systems, is system. If just the [00:24:00]system needs to be fixed, then it wasn’t necessarily our sin, right? It was just, Oh, we just need to clean up this system or do this strategy or do this better.

And there doesn’t have to be an ownership of, we played a part. and why this church has gotten to where it is, David, this has all been great. we’re going to have some more resources down the line and I’ll add them. We’ll maybe even have you back on to talk about it more and, and point to that resource as it’s being done.

I know you’re doing workshops with this, all over and, and leading people through this, but, just as we’ve come to the end of our time, one of the things we’ve started adding here at the end is just, David, could you tell us some ways that our listeners can be praying for you and your family and your ministry?

And then would you voice a prayer, for our listeners that they would recognize where they have drifted away from the heart of God, that they would remember and they, of who he’s called them to be, repent and, come back to the heart of God.

David Jackson: Yeah. Be glad to do that Jimbo. And I [00:25:00] certainly want to preface all of this by saying, look, I haven’t, I haven’t figured this all out yet myself. I’m still dealing with it in my own life. And that’s probably out of that need that has kind of prompted me to be interested and try to, to spend more time in this area.

So that’s one area where. Our folks can be praying for me is just that I continue to humble myself. I continue to listen carefully to God. I continue to be willing to take that next step, whatever it is for him that he’s inviting me to join him in doing. so I’d appreciate that. We have some family things going on.

We have a wedding of our firstborn this summer. We have a grandchild on the way, uh, coming in July. So those family changes and transitions, we’d really appreciate your prayers for that as well. And then as I go nationally, And share this information, it’s going to be in written form, a digital manual probably out before the end of the year, but I’m going around and leading workshops from one hour up to four hours in length.

[00:26:00] just be praying that God will use that to warm the hearts of these congregations and call them back into a thriving, vital relationship with Him. Now can I pray for us?

JimBo Stewart: Please do.

David Jackson: Let’s do that. Father, we thank you so much for the faithfulness and love that we are able to experience from you. We love because you first loved us and we are so grateful for that, that even while we were still sinners, you demonstrated your love for us by Jesus coming to die on the cross of Calvary in our place.

Lord, we thank you that you give us the privilege of knowing you, loving you, and serving you. And we pray, Lord, that we would recognize, even through our time together today, that if we’re not careful, we can drift just ever so slightly. It can be like a drip from a faucet that little by little begins to build up.

And if we’re not careful, it can take us far from the heart of God. [00:27:00] So I pray that my own life, I pray it for our listeners, Lord, that, we would keep our hearts close to you, that we would do anything and everything we can to make sure we’re spending time with you, that we’re listening to you and allowing you to speak into our lives and that you are directing our paths in everything that we do.

Father, I pray for. Churches that are hard hearted, that are struggling, that are callous, that are rebellious out there, Lord. I pray that you would use this tool and you would more than that use the life of leaders whose passion and desire, whose hunger And thirst after righteousness would be so great in their lives that, it would be attractive and winsome to those congregations that would be open and responsive to your spirit working upon their hearts to, to bring them into that closer, greater relationship with you.

And may we love you most of all, more than anything, and then love one another, our neighbors as [00:28:00] ourself. We give it all to you, Lord, for your glory and honor in the name of Jesus. We pray.

JimBo Stewart: Amen.

Thanks for coming on, David.

David Jackson: Enjoyed it very much. Let’s do it again.