JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are, back at the bootcamp. Back at it again, Bob. I hope you’re ready for the next episode. Moving into episode 2 0 3 up and beyond, in the echelons of the longest Running Replant podcast in existence.

Bob Bickford: Well, welcome to this side of history, Jimbo. I think it’s, uh, it’s monumental for us to be here and I’m just excited to be part of it.

JimBo Stewart: I know, man, it’s, it’s pretty incredible, to be the longest running of something doesn’t mean we’re the best at it, just the longest running. and so if we could just not quit, we can hold that title and nobody can beat us.

Bob Bickford: Well, there is something for sticktoitiveness and perseverance and grit. And as re planters, Jimbo, we should have that characteristic. And so, uh, sometimes you just gotta stay after it.

JimBo Stewart: Man, speaking of staying after it, the, calendar never stops and school is right around the corner. First day of school is coming up real quick. and with that we’re kind of moving beyond out of the summer slump back into, you might get a little bit of a [00:01:00] back to school bump, with some guests showing up at your church within the next couple weeks.

It’s possible. Sometimes that happens. What do you do about that in a smaller church? you know, we’ve all seen the larger churches that have massive hospitality teams with, you know, guys doing. Cartwheels and spinning signs at the, at the road and Cadillac golf carts pulling everybody where they gotta go.

And, you know, everybody gets a Yeti mug and, you know, a gift card to Ruth Chris. But we’re not, we’re not talking about places that can do that. Bob. We’re talking about, we’re talking about churches that, honestly, sometimes when a guest shows up, we’re like, man, there’s no way they’re coming back like,

Bob Bickford: Yeah. Yeah. And they dunno which door to go into often because it’s not marked. And if you’re in the very declined church, maybe the front door, you can’t even go inside of it because the plaster fell off of the wall in the lobby.

JimBo Stewart: yeah.

Bob Bickford: So some [00:02:00] challenges.

JimBo Stewart: There are some challenges. So I thought I. It would be good for us to do an episode talking about, how do you, how do you do guest services in a smaller church, an older church, a declining church? how do you, how do you think through these things in a way, that are manageable, attainable, but also, again, we’re not trying to move full on, you know, glitz and glam and fireworks and attractional.

We’re, we’re, But at the same time, like, we don’t want it to be a horrible experience when people show up and then people are rude to them and or no one talks to them at all. And, you know, so how do, how, what’s, what is the, what’s the balance between being friendly and welcoming and like, overbearing?

Like, we don’t wanna be overbearing either. Like, you know, statistics tell us that most people that show up to church are introverts, in attendance. And so like, if, if everybody’s like going out, you know, of course then you got Mark Hallie who just ignores all that and hugs everyone. Just a full brace.

Bear hug. So let’s talk about [00:03:00] it, man. Let’s, one of the first things I think Bob is emphasizing genuine hospitality. Like just, Hey, we’re glad you’re here. Like, and when I mean genuine, I mean, you have to work for this, not to be contrived, but smaller churches have a bit of an advantage here. And I wanna highlight that, that, one, it’s easier to spot new people, two in a smaller church.

Everyone is on the hospitality team. Bob, even angry Deacon Bill in the back who just grumbles and complains is on the hospitality team. And so you’ve gotta work to make this more of a culture than think of it more of a culture and less of an event or just a team or just a process. You need to have some process, I think.

But I really think you gotta think how do we, how do we infuse within the whole congregation this idea? Of, Hey, we’re glad you’re here, and we’re excited to get to meet you.

Bob Bickford: Yeah, I served with a pastor one time and, and something he used to say that I thought was really wise is he said, people [00:04:00] want to be welcome, wanted, but not watched.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

Bob Bickford: So I think this idea of, we, we want people to feel appropriately welcomed but not over welcomed. And we also want them to, to feel, uh, that little bit of anonymity.

Have you ever gone into a shopping situation, Jimbo, where you can tell the salespeople are on commission

and

man, you go in the door and man, they’re on you. Right? And, and it’s just like, oh goodness. Right? And you want to, lot of times you just want to. You wanna shop by yourself, you want to, you wanna look at things, you want to kind of figure it out.

Do you wanna observe it? You want to take your time. You don’t wanna be asked a lot of questions. I think same thing with visitors who visit your church, give ’em some space, greet them, let them know that you’re there to help ’em, point ’em in the right direction, give ’em the resources they need, and then give ’em space to experience the environment, I think.

And so, Part of that is just through your culture of saying to your people on a regular basis, Hey, even if there’s not guests, just, you know, I’ve always heard from the stage [00:05:00] you go, you know, we wanna welcome those of you who are, uh, visiting for our, uh, visiting at our worship gathering. We wanna welcome those of you who are listening online, et cetera.

So you just build this into the culture that we anticipate and expect that guests are gonna be here and they’re gonna be welcomed.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think, don’t overdo it, man. Like you said, you don’t want to overdo it to the point that it’s so overbearing. I like the idea of feel welcome, wanted, but not watched. Um, it’s, it’s an awkward thing when we, when we left Redemption Church. So that, we could leave that leadership to someone else and I could go full-time with namm.

We had the unique experience of kind of being church visitors, guest really for the first time in a long time. And, and it was, it was interesting to see how, how that, I mean, I remember, I remember one church, Bob, there was this huge like, welcome tent visitors come here, like out in the parking lot and it had all these like gift bags and things like that.

And so like we walked up. No one, like they just kept talking to each other and like, [00:06:00] Like I, we were, we were obviously new, like no one even said hello to us. and then like, it was just super, like, we had to be like, oh, like do the kids, we asked, we’re like, do the kids go into service with us or do they go, so we just don’t know?

and they were like, oh, oh yeah. I mean, the kids could go wherever you want. And it was like, yeah, that’s not helpful at all. I don’t, I don’t know what to do now.

you know, and part of that is I, I would say, I’m gonna skip down to number three that I wrote. I’m gonna come back to number two in a second.

Uh, don’t assume people know how to get places. so how, you know, how can I help you find your way? Good. Signage is super important. good signage, like, and even look, I, it was, this was true of our church and I’ve heard it, I’ve heard this at least 10 other times from other churches. Even like the, the welcome flags you can put out or whatever, you know, the big flags, that’s welcome and they, or they say the church name or something like that.

When we put those out, people came to our church. From the [00:07:00] neighborhood because they literally thought the church was closed. But when we put those flags up, they were like, oh, obviously something is happening here. Let’s go check it out. And so signs like that, but even good sign, like really have an outside person that has never been to your church, maybe from like your association or state convention or from another church, if you’re friendly with a larger church that has somebody in charge of guest services and stuff like that, have ’em come do a walkthrough.

Or, you know, a mystery shop visit on a Sunday morning and give you some insight. And one of the things they’ll tell you probably is you don’t have enough signage. I don’t know where to go. I don’t know where the bathroom is. I don’t know where to drop my kids off. I don’t know where I go to get coffee.

I, and you know, how, how old churches are Bob? Like we built addition on top of addition. On top of addition. And so the, the layout’s super convoluted and there’s like 17 ways to enter sometimes. And so which way do you enter? And it gets really confusing. So get good signs, have volunteers that can walk with them, have volunteers in the [00:08:00] parking lot.

sometimes you’re gonna see somebody pull up and. You may not know where to park or even, like, I know the church that got allowed to be a part of replanting redemption, it was super confusing depending on where you parked, how to get to anywhere. ’cause we had several parking lots, but they were not near each other at all.

and so like you could park entirely in the wrong place and have no idea where you’re going. And so having people that are kind of seeing that happen and, and helping point people in the right direction, uh, in the parking lot or in the main entrance or something. Just to help. Hey, how can I help you find your way?

Bob Bickford: Yeah, I think even the simple exercise of you getting in your car, pulling into the driveway. Parking. And then from that point on, asking yourself the question, where do I go?

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

Bob Bickford: Right, where do I go? And then you just walk in and you see your facility, and you see your signage from a different viewpoint. Most of the time we’re, you know, we, we’ve got, we’re thinking about the service, we’re thinking about the gathering, we’re thinking about the meeting that we have, and we [00:09:00] just don’t pay attention to some of those simple things.

And once we get oriented to the building, then we’re fine. But, it’s time, you know, it, it’s time well spent when you evaluate. Your signage, your entry. And then I would also say this, Jimbo, look at everything. I mean, look at, look at things out to the peripheral or vision, right? You might notice that there’s been a piece of paper in the corner for like a long time, right?

Or you might notice there’s some weeds or there’s a, a chipped piece of concrete. Or you might see that there’s, you know, somebody left a coffee cup on a. On a, uh, coat rack, you know, up the top where they, you know, the Bibles go and all that kinda stuff. I mean, it’s just some, it’s surprising what you will see sometimes if you go into a church and open your eyes and just start paying attention.

So, the big question is asked is this, what does this communicate about who we are? That’s the big point right there. What does it communicate about who, who we are, that we don’t care about our facility, or that we aren’t ready for you, or that we’re not prepared to help you find out where you can go?

And if I can’t find the main way to restroom, how are you gonna help me with a spiritual question?

Right.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. [00:10:00] I, wanna go back to not being overwhelming, you know, that feel welcomed, wanted, and not watched. I also visited a church, uh, to preach one Sunday. And, every single church member, there was a table in the back, had a name tag, with, with their name, with like an official like name tag.

And part of that was really cool. But then part of that was also like, it is super clear who is not.

A member here, it was a little like, oh, okay. Like, I’m obviously a visitor. I don’t have a name tag. That guy didn’t have a name tag. So I don’t know if that’s a good idea or not, but, um, is, is, I think it could go either way, but part of that is so, all right, you’ve parked, you’ve gotten in the signs, or the volunteers have helped you get where you need to go.

Now the worship service starts. And I, I’ve heard it touted, I don’t know the exact stats on this Bob, but I’ve heard it touted by ministry leaders, expert ministry leadership experts, that the first time guest or visitors will decide whether they come back again within seven to 10 minutes, some say within 30 seconds or in the parking [00:11:00] lot.

I’m not sure which of those is right. Whatever it is, it’s a short amount of time. 10 minutes is like the longest I’ve heard, and so. I think a good question in that is like, what are the first 10 minutes in your service? Like, is it really horrible music with no joy whatsoever in the congregation as they sing, uh, and it’s just miserable?

Or is it 10 minutes of announcements about committee meetings and you know, like, just think about like, what, what are those first. 10 minutes of, of your service, like, and I’m not telling you to like do a raffle or, or be cool or anything like that, but just like how do you communicate in your order of service, who you are, what you’re about, and why regular participation in this service is time well spent.

Like how, what about your order of service helps? Communicate that. And so what does your order of service communicate about the importance of scripture, about the power of prayer, about the beauty of biblical community? Where should [00:12:00] announcements go in the order of service and how long should they be? I dunno, there’s a lot of questions that I don’t have a definitive answer on, but I think there are at least questions that you’ve got to wrestle with and think through as you think through not only what is what, what are your members experiencing on Sunday morning, but what are guests experiencing?

Bob Bickford: Yeah. Like you, Jimbo, when I transitioned off of staff and, uh, leading our church, I get to visit a number of different churches before we locked into where we attend now, and our members now. And I think the, most. Interesting experiences where where, where there was no kind of verbal communication, it’s just like the lights went down or we just started singing and it was like, okay, well I guess this is what we’re doing right now.

Right? And then, I think the, the most helpful ones where the, the services where there was a greeting and, and an orientation to, you know, here’s the bulletin. We’re so glad you’re here. If you’re a guest, we want to, you know, have an [00:13:00] opportunity to meet you after the service. Here’s what we’re doing this morning, right?

This is the quick orientation. We’re going to pray, read from scripture. We’re gonna sing together about the truth of the goodness of God in his character. And then we’re gonna have a time of teaching and response where we can respond to what we’ve heard this morning. And so we just wanna let you know that you’re free to participate in it.

So it’s this invitation in orientation, right? That I think that’s a part of a good. Systematic way to, to approach this. Invite people to be welcome, invite people to participate, and give them an orientation. Like just give them the overview of what’s going on. Now we, we often, as re planters of dying churches, traditional churches, we often bristle about the bulletin, the order of service.

But man, there’s no more important security blanket to a guest and a bulletin with an order of service, right?

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, absolutely.

Bob Bickford: And, you know, and I, I even tweeted out in my revitalization reality series, um, about the bulletin, the bulletin being a security blanket for the church. Like it says, we’re doing [00:14:00]something, we’re still here. There is a part of that that’s important in orientation to, to what you’re doing. So whether that’s paper or whether you give that verbally or whether you have a QR code on the back seat of your.

A pew or the the chair and they can scan it, give them something that they can know what’s going on. A verbal cue, a written cue, visual cue, uh, because it helps allay people’s fears. What’s going to happen right when I’m here? What’s gonna happen next? Why are they bringing out the chickens and the snakes?

Like, when does that happen? And then do I need to leave? So I think just giving people a heads up on what’s about to happen is so important. It does help them feel comfortable and welcome.

JimBo Stewart: I think a couple things, uh, outta that one. I, I love that idea of the orientation type greeting. Welcome. Hey, here’s what we’re gonna do today. Uh, one for guests, but then two also. Uh, when we had Nathan on from reawaken hymns, we talked about the importance of just reminding our people that we’re leading why we do the things that we do, and, and how do we keep them from just becoming rote [00:15:00] routine.

Well, we explain it. We explain it a lot and we explain it over and over and over again. Uh, and you can open with scripture and you can open with things that point to, Hey, here’s why we’re here, here’s what we’re doing, and here’s why we’re doing it. and that, I think that’s a beautiful idea to incorporate into, the beginning of a service for the guest and for the members.

Also, think about something I experienced, uh, recently. We went to lunch for somebody’s birthday after church at a place called V Pizza. And, I don’t know if it’s just a local joint or, or what, but it’s my, it was my first time there, I think. And there was a sign, it’s very Italian, very like true Italian pizza type place.

And, and so they, there was this sign when you walked in that said, had a big stop sign, said, stop. If you’ve never been to V Pizza before or eaten in Italy, stop and read this. And it wasn’t a menu. It was like a, I don’t know what to call it other than like a culture document. Like it was this document that was basically like, Hey, welcome to V Pizza.

This is true [00:16:00] Italian cuisine. and Italian food is meant to be shared. And so if your food comes out before your neighbors, Give ’em a bite, let ’em have a slice, and they’ll give you a slice of theirs. And, they just talk through a bunch of other things through like, Hey, like you, it literally was like, use a fork and a knife for your, for your pizza because that’s how you eat it.

And and it was like, it was just a cult. It was like, Hey, stop. Welcome to a new place. Things are gonna be a little different here. Here’s some things you gotta know and here’s why we do ’em. and that was, I don’t know, it was really cool for me just to see that and be like, oh, and it made me wanna share my pizza with other people and it made me wanna be a part of that culture, uh, that they were talking about.

And so I think that’s a valuable thing that you’re talking about, that orientation piece. Then I would say, all right, here’s the question, Bob, and this one’s highly debated. Should you do a meet and greet time in your service? This has been highly debated. There’s articles like about like why this is a horrible idea.

and then again, there’s Mark Halleck that goes against every, everything that’s is introvert friendly [00:17:00] and is doing a great job at it. and, and they’re all about the meet and greet time at

the Calvary.

Bob Bickford: Yeah.

JimBo Stewart: So I don’t know, what are your thoughts on the meet and greet time?

Bob Bickford: Well, I, you know, I remember, COVID started changing that up a little bit, right? And prior to that, I think Rainer had come out prior to Covid with like, you know, 150 reasons why he did not want to do the greeting time in the service. And most of them, Tom’s an introvert and, and he just doesn’t like people.

So, you know, he’s, that’s what, so I mean, you gotta. Think of that, but I think there are a lot of people who are, they, they want an opportunity to be greeted at a pace and in a way that makes sense to them, that makes you feel like they’re friendly, but they’re, again, welcome and wanted not watched and not over greeted.

So I think part of it depends on the culture of your church and the culture of you as a pastor. Like how are you going to create it? So, uh, and what, how do you wanna shape it? Right? So I think that if the greeting [00:18:00] time becomes, A time where everybody greets everybody they’re familiar with and doesn’t say hi to the guests, then that’s a problem.

if you want to have an opportunity where people can at least say hello to one another, I think you have to think how do I shape the culture so that we say a brief hello and that I ensure that my people who are regulars, if we have guests, will greet AP appropriately, greet the people who are.

our are, are genuinely and truly our guests. So I’ve always tended to be more of a let’s shape the culture and let’s, let’s give a greeting, a brief greeting, because I think that’s helpful for the body specifically if you don’t have, you know, if, if in a good, healthy church, people are hanging out after the service, right?

So they’re, they’re talking a lot. They’re connecting. Perhaps they’re even coming early.

JimBo Stewart: Mm-hmm.

Bob Bickford: but if you, if you allow for a brief appropriate greeting time with some boundaries, I think it could be helpful. It’s not absolutely necessary. [00:19:00] But if, if you ask me would I prefer a greeting time or not? A greeting time, I would say a modified greeting time with some boundaries.

The church we tend right now doesn’t have a greeting time. I. but we all hang, but we greet one another. Those of us who’ve been there a while greet one another before, and we certainly hang out after the, after the church. I just think it’s, and then my, my particular perspective is if I see a guest, I’m certainly gonna go at least say hello.

Right? So I think if your body is trained and equipped to be appropriately welcoming, then. You know, maybe a greening time or maybe not. but again, you gotta develop that culture. And I, I would say don’t let a, don’t let a introvert who doesn’t like people tell you what you should do.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would say if, if you, if you don’t do it, then you then is there a built in time for natural interaction in some way? Like there needs to be, right. This is not supposed to be, just. Sitting and consuming and facing the, the stage. if you do have a greeting time, then how do you keep it from being contrived and [00:20:00] kind of awkward for introverts, uh, which is statistically the largest part of your attendees, usually, but, uh, and I think you’re right, some sort of modified way to do that.

Uh, you know, I think there are a lot of ways you could brainstorm that there’s no definitive answer. The Bible doesn’t tell us how to do a greeting time, so you gotta figure it out yourself. Right. and I think, you know, perhaps what if it’s one of those where like, Hey, we’re gonna take a minute just to say hello to each other.

And, if you’re a guest here today, then you can take this moment to fill out a guest card or to look at our bulletin and the things we’ve got coming up. Like you could say some sort of way that gives like a freedom to feel like I. I, I can just sit here and just look at this bulletin if I want, or something like that.

I don’t know if you could create some ways, but I think the biggest thing is the culture of, man, just getting to know people and creating a culture and finding people and, you know, inviting people to your small group, inviting ’em to lunch, inviting, like just building relationships naturally is really the way, I think it, it should be done.

The culture piece. Remembering that in a smaller church, everyone is on the hospitality team, right?[00:21:00]

Bob Bickford: Yeah.

JimBo Stewart: So then what do you do? How do you create a follow-up process, and then train a team to, to really help you with the follow-up. You know, a thank you for visiting. We’d love to get to know you more. I think part of that, we were just talking about you, you, you take people to lunch, and you train others that are good, hospitable people in your people that you know, would be a joy to go to lunch with.

And you say, Hey, why don’t you. At least once a month. try to find somebody. And here’s what I say, guests are not just somebody in the church you don’t know well. And that, that’s one, that’s one of the things we did at Redemption is I would say, Hey, at least once a month, you ought to be gonna lunch with somebody or having ’em over to your house or something.

it can be a guest, it can be somebody in the church you don’t know. Well, it doesn’t need to be the same people every time. Like you can have lunch with those people all the other weeks, but at least once a month you ought to be eating lunch with somebody you’ve never had a meal with. And, whether that be a guest or somebody else in the church, and if you could just build something like that into the culture, I think that’s [00:22:00] super helpful.

Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm. I agree. To become a hospital, uh, excuse me, to become a hospitable church, you actually have to practice hospitality, right? So that, that’s important for us to note that, that we may have the desire to be friendly, but here’s, here’s another thing, and, and we just struggle to do it. But here’s another thing I would say, Jimbo, is we may have individuals in our church who just don’t know how to do it.

Right. And they’re just, they’re uncomfortable with it. They’re not good at it. They’re introverts. And so man, partner up with them. Invite them to come along, right? And introduce them to the guest and show them how you have conversations with people that you don’t know. Those sorts of things. And these are the things that our parents were supposed to teach us as we interacted with people we didn’t know as children in the larger world, right?

In the community. But unfortunately, a lot of people just didn’t, didn’t get that for some reason. Right. And they don’t know how to ask good questions and so [00:23:00] they, they, they’re willing to, and I think most, most people wanna be friendly. They just may struggle to h how do I do it? And, and you have a minority of folks perhaps, that are just extreme introverts that are, that are really afraid of it, right?

The, the genius of the gospel message is that it is meant to be shared from person to person. And one of the discipleship trends that we have to help people develop is how do I have a conversation with people that I don’t know Jesus was a master at it, right? And he would just walk up to people, people would walk up to him.

And so I think there’s something there in, in terms of hospitality that, that we just need to lean into.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And I think, people, even in even introverted people, all people want somewhere where they belong. and so you, you can help do that. This is one of the most beautiful things about the gospel, is it gives us somewhere that we belong no matter what. No matter our differences, we all stand on [00:24:00] level, ground at the cross.

all right, so they visited. They’ve had a great time. you know, A lot of, a lot of places in their hospitality or guest services give a gift, a coffee mug or something like that. I like the idea of a coffee mug. Not everybody drinks coffee though. one of the things we did is we picked a local diner and I.

Bought a bunch of $5 gift cards and, and what we would say is, Hey, somebody on our staff would love to, on our leadership, would love to just buy you lunch. Uh, or, or a cup of coffee. and so you can use that gift card when you meet with us or not. or you can go somewhere else, but just use that as a way to even initiate like, Hey, we’d love to follow up with an actual conversation.

Like, and in that conversation, we’ll buy you a cup of coffee or we’ll buy you a meal. and so if you’re interested in that, let us know. and so we would give that out. Or for a while we would also give out a free Wednesday night dinner. We did Wednesday night dinners and, you know, they’re, you know, they’re cheap just to help cover costs five, six [00:25:00] bucks.

And so we would give a coupon for free Wednesday night dinner for a first time guest. And, it’s an opportunity and just. To get somebody, just whatever you could do to get it to be a, a next touch. Uh, handwritten cards, uh, are great. I use, the Felt app, f e l t, on iPad and I could do handwritten cards if they gave us their information.

Phone calls are good. and this isn’t just for guests. I know a pastor that. He, he takes note of every member that isn’t there on Sunday, and he calls them the following week just to check on ’em.

Or he texts him. He either calls or texts just, and not to make ’em feel guilty, but just to say, Hey, I just wanted to know I missed you.

I, I, I missed seeing you there. Uh, and that’s brought up a lot of really good conversations for him and created some relationships for him with his members.

Bob Bickford: Cool. Uh, yeah, I think those are great. I, I think you can even do something real simple. Um, if you don’t have those, uh, you a cup or, you know, coupons or gift cards or something like that, you can simply give them, a we, and [00:26:00] we had some of these, we had a bag that with a, like a small bag with our church logo on it.

And then we had something that just talked about what is the gospel, right? It was a simple gospel book. Right? And because we weren’t quite sure what background they might be coming from and we, we wanted them to, we wanted them to walk away with something that they spiritually could. Connect with, if they would, would spend some time with it, if they were interested in truly seeking to know more about Jesus and they didn’t know about him.

And so we, we, you know, put a little card in there, a little note card, and then that book, what is the gospel? And then gave them, gave them that, or allowed ’em to get it. And we had a, a, a center, like a real simple place in the back of the, the corner of our church where they could just drop by and get it and we would mention it.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. Yeah, we had our bio, we changed our pew bibles to, view the story. Pew Bibles, paperback. And I would, I would just about every Sunday say, Hey, if this is your first time here or you don’t own a Bible, you can have that one.

and what I encourage you is the first like eight [00:27:00] pages in color print are, are really, a summary of what this whole book is about and what we’re about.

If you wanna see what it is we’re about, you can take that home and you can read those, those pages, and it’s a presentation of the gospel. and so it gives away just to continue, to glorify God and how we do that. hey listeners, we’d love to hear from you, like, what are the ideas you have for, for guests, for guest services, for hospitality that you’ve seen work really well, in your smaller church that you’re revitalizing or replanting?

Shoot us a note, let us know.