Welcome to another episode of the Replant Boot Camp, the podcast for church renewal leaders where we listen, learn, and laugh together with boots on the ground church leaders. I’m your host, Jimbo Stewart. This podcast is sponsored by Church QuickSight by 180 Digital. Getting a website that your visitors and members will love doesn’t have to be hard.

Learn more at churchquicksight. com.

[00:00:35] JimBo: Here we are back at the bootcamp back at it again. I hope you’re ready for the next episode. I’m excited to be joined today by Wesley Lewis. None other than the leader, the founder extraordinaire, CEO of all things, 180 digital, the soul and great sponsor of this podcast,

[00:00:54] Wesley Lewis: Hey, somebody’s got to do it. So glad to be here. Thanks for having me back.

[00:00:58] JimBo: man, always glad to have you on Wesley is not only a sponsor, he’s a sponsor because he’s a good friend. And, we’ve done a lot of ministry together and a lot of things together. so real briefly, tell us what 180 digital is, because in reality, I’m betting a lot of people skip the beginning of the podcast where I tell them who the sponsor is

[00:01:17] Wesley Lewis: Yeah, absolutely. So 180digital is a team of Believers who know and love the church and want to come alongside churches to help them With their online presence. we do a lot of web development We support websites, we host them, and we work with churches of all sizes, large and small. and our heart is to run our business as a ministry, to be able to help people and churches.

You know, how people come to know Jesus through the churches. And in order for a church to do that in our modern digital age, they have to have a website. So, we come along churches and be able to help them do that and execute that well. We’ve got a lot of experience on our team and we know how to do it really good.

So, that’s one of the benefits of working with someone who’s, An outsider is you get all that experience that we do this day in and day out. So, we help churches do that, but we also work with large organizations and do custom development of mobile apps and web apps and things of that nature. So we’ve got some really cool projects coming down the pipe.

So

[00:02:19] JimBo: awesome. Well, I would definitely encourage everybody to consider that for their digital needs. Wesleyan 1A Digital has been a blessing to me and my ministry, to the Replant Bootcamp, to the Replant team, to the church that I replanted, and to a lot of other friends as well. So I can speak, from firsthand experience as a client and a friend.

So, highly recommend it. But today. we didn’t bring it on for a long extended commercial. I just wanted to throw that in there.

[00:02:45] Wesley Lewis: I appreciate that,

[00:02:47] JimBo: A few months ago, I had, Richard Blackaby’s sons on the podcast, Mike and Daniel Blackaby, to talk about their book, Straight to the Heart.

in that book, they talked a lot about how we have moved from maybe primarily a head culture to a heart culture. In the way that people hear and receive information. they talk a lot in that book about the importance of story and challenge of how, Jesus most often spoke in story, I think that’s an important thing for us to remember.

I am a huge fan and proponent of expositional preaching, you know, going to the word, exposing the truth of the word. but I think there’s a great value into figuring out how to appeal to the heart of the listener. and you are trained in a specific way that kind of goes to that with the listener in mind as you talk and make sure that, We’re gearing what we’re saying in such a way that they hear it clearly in their world.

So what is that system?

[00:03:50] Wesley Lewis: Yeah, so, for a couple years, I was a story brand certified guide. So the story brand framework is a framework that basically was taken out of the movie industry, and which is, you know, primarily a story. telling industry. And Donald Miller, the author of the book, great book, by the way, you know, anybody listening, please read the book.

It’s a fantastic book, explains it much better than I do. But, you know, talks about how he started to realize the commonalities between storytelling and, really it’s story is a sense making device. It is something that helps us to and for, you know, thousands of years, that’s how oral history was passed down was through the art of storytelling.

So our brains are wired to latch on to a good story. That’s why we love going to the movies. We love experiencing that and rooting for the underdog. And so StoryBrand basically takes those principles, puts it into a way that makes it usable for us, as we think through how to promote events, how to communicate important things from the pulpit, and I love expository preaching, but I do think that there is power in using these different elements, and it’s also a good filter to just ask important questions, whether you’re putting together a talk, a sermon, whatever, to ask these things, to say, okay, is this really going to connect with my audience, and this story brand framework is a great way, to be able to, a great tool to use to make sure that it does that clearly.

[00:05:17] JimBo: You know, one of the things you did is you helped me, I was asked to do a talk that’s a little different than a talk I would normally give, and it was for the purpose of a orphanage that we’ve partnered with Cabaret Haiti Mission there in Haiti, and they asked me to speak at a fundraiser to all these donors, and I thought, you know, that’s actually something I don’t think I’ve ever done before.

And, I had a short amount of time because we were outside after a golf tournament and I knew I couldn’t hold their attention for a very long time. nobody after a golf tournament, when they’re waiting to see who wins, wants to sit and listen to some guy talk for 20 minutes And so I thought, man, how do I say what I want to say in such a way that it appeals to them and makes them want to be a part of what God’s doing through Calvary Haiti Mission.

So you were gracious enough to let me, sit in your office and you worked me through the story brand thing. And man, I was so grateful. I feel like I was able to, in like six minutes, say more than I would have been able to say. In 26 minutes had I not thought through the series of questions that this framework provides.

[00:06:26] Wesley Lewis: Yeah, it gives us a series, I kind of think of it like hooks, right? It kind of gives us this little bit of organization to our talk that keeps things focused. Because it’s real simple, I mean, I’ve done this plenty of times when I’ve been preaching, it’s easy to chase a rabbit, right? It’s easy to talk about something that we like that is relative to us, but our audience doesn’t really understand.

So it is kind of an audience focused approach to make sure that you’re really talking about things that matter to them. so, you know, one of the things we say in StoryBrand is that if you’re not talking about how to help someone survive and thrive, then they’re not really listening. And that’s because the reality is their story is really about them.

And for us as, as pastors, We understand that God, that Jesus kind of enters their story. He really is ultimately what we’ll talk about in a few minutes, I’m sure. The guide that helps them become the best them that, that there can be. and through their relationship with, with God. So like, it’s one of those things that it helps us kind of keep focus and keep clear the story we’re trying to tell.

So clarity is really what you’re after. Because it’s so easy to confuse people by talking about things that don’t actually matter to them.

[00:07:39] JimBo: Yeah, I think the clarity piece is so important. I think sometimes there’s a temptation in communication to try to be really clever And, you know, Southern Baptist, we make fun of ourselves for like the alliteration and all this, and I’m not against, I love a good alliteration. I mean,

[00:07:56] Wesley Lewis: Me too.

[00:07:57] JimBo: without even trying, all my points end up having the same letter.

And, I think that’s helpful maybe even more for the preacher than it is for everybody else. But, what I love about this is it’s not about, Being flashy and so when you hear this, I know that for some of you may hear this and think are you trying to tell me I need to be flashy and creative like a marketer?

This is really not what that’s trying to do This is about getting clear on how to communicate The message that you are trying to communicate to the person hearing it in a way that they hear it in their world And in their reality and what they’re doing in life.

So what are some of the questions, the hooks that this takes us through to ensure that that happens?

[00:08:44] Wesley Lewis: Yeah, so, you know, we kind of do a little bit of a variation on this. so something, you know, we always start out is who, who is your character? Who’s the main character? Who is it that you’re trying to communicate to? You need to do a little bit of digging about them to kind of get an idea of who they are.

You know, what do they like to do? but most importantly, what is it that they really are looking for? So, again, this is, each one of these has a different question. What is the one thing that they’re really looking for that would bring them to your church? So, You know, oftentimes, maybe it’s a, maybe they’re looking for community.

Maybe they’re looking for help paying their bills. Maybe they’re looking for you know, they have a need. What is that need? So kind of starting there to understand, you know, what is it that that person is looking for? So we kind of call that the first hook is kind of the character and what do they want and what are they looking for?

[00:09:35] JimBo: Okay, so I think for example, and we don’t have to do this thread throughout the whole thing, but I’m thinking, even just replant boot camp, you know, who’s listening to this? It’s typically in mind is people in renewal ministry of some form. that are looking for, wisdom, encouragement, help, along the way in the journey of seeing a church be renewed.

[00:09:58] Wesley Lewis: Yeah, so what are those, what are they really looking for? Like you said, they want a church that’s growing and thriving. They want their church to be a part of what God is doing. So kind of keeping that in focus. And then it kind of comes to the next hook, which is, okay, what is the problem?

So the problem is what keeps them from getting what they are looking for. So what is it that they want? What is keeping them from getting what they want? There’s usually a physical component to that. So there is, what is the literal obstacle? Maybe it’s they don’t have the right leaders. Maybe it’s that their church is in a dying area of town.

there could be a lot of that sort of thing. Then the other part of that is, there’s a problem with that, but also, how does that problem make them feel? And the reason you’re asking that is because you want to have empathy. You want to understand how they’re struggling. And I think Jesus demonstrates this.

in his ministry he understood how people felt with their problems. He identified, with the outcast and, the struggle that they had just to fit in. so there is this empathy piece that comes along in just a little bit, but it’s important to know, okay, your main character, what is it that they want?

What is the physical thing that’s keeping them from doing that? So like, say for churches, you know, maybe they, are the only leader. and they don’t have anybody to help them. And that really is making them feel stuck. They’re feeling paralyzed. So it’s kind of identifying some of those, those key characteristics that you’re, you know, the person that you’re communicating to is looking for.

And so whether that would be a student or a child or a pastor or you can fill these in. Just ask yourselves those questions. And it really gives you some valuable insight as you really think about them to communicate clearly to the needs. Of your audience.

[00:11:47] JimBo: You know, I think about one of the exercises that Bob Bumgarner and I will do sometimes with churches, talking about the who, who’s the character, because for a pastor, maybe that’s a hard question even to answer of, you know, I don’t know, everybody, we’re trying to reach everybody in the community.

one of the ways we’ve, Bob and I will work with churches is to say, Either one, you kind of do a demographic study, kind of look at what’s the makeup, what’s the profile of people that are there, but a quick easy way is actually to go, who are the last, think of the last 10 to 20 people that joined that church.

and then create a prototype based on those people. Who are they? Why did they come here? Why did they join here? And it gives you a little bit of that breakdown of who that character is, what it was they were wanting, even have some conversations, what sort of obstacles stood in the way. so as we learn that kind of character that we’re focused on, what the problem is that they have, what’s the next step?

What’s our step in the process to meet them in that gap?

[00:12:50] Wesley Lewis: Yeah, and this, here enters my favorite person in any story. Okay, this is the Mr. Miyagi moment. Because oftentimes you use the illustration of Karate Kid when I’m explaining this to people. This is the guide. This is, in my opinion, my favorite person in the story. This is the person who comes alongside the main character to help them be, The best them that they can be, who trains them, who educates them, who inspires them.

And so the guide from the, story brand framework, the guide is the church or the pastor or the leader who’s putting this together. So you have to think, okay, as I enter into the story, how do I empathize with them? How do I understand their pains? And maybe you have some experience.

Maybe you’ve experienced those difficulties too. You’ve had financial problems. You’ve had family issues. You know, it gives you the ability to be able to show that you relate specifically to their problem. And that’s when they connect, like, oh, that pastor understands me. They’ve experienced that too. And man, talk about just a strong connection.

And then there’s the other element too, and this is kind of where we take a little bit of a different strand, is you have this where you’re demonstrating authority. So you’re saying like, here’s not only do I understand you, but I have the ability to, To help you with your needs. Now, imagine Karate Kid, right?

If there’s this one scene where Mr. Miyagi jumps over the fence and fights Cobra Kai, right, and defeats them. If Mr. Miyagi hadn’t demonstrated that he had the ability to be able to teach Daniel the things that he had, there’s not, it just doesn’t carry you want to demonstrate empathy, you want to demonstrate authority, and the one that we add in there is just authenticity because it’s important, especially in our marketing saturated world, to demonstrate that you are speaking authentically.

You’re not pretending to care. But you actually do care. You’re being genuine to who you are. These are real stories that you’re telling. These aren’t made up stories. So we always say a good guide demonstrates empathy, authority, and then also authenticity.

And when you do those things, it connects with your audience and makes them really pay attention to what you have to say.

[00:15:06] JimBo: Okay, so we know who we’re talking to, we know what they’re looking for, we can identify how we can empathize, we can speak from authority and credibility of our own experience in how we have been through something similar.

This is not a marketing ploy, but now what do we offer them? So we make that connection, but what do we offer them that actually helps move them out of that, that obstacle?

[00:15:32] Wesley Lewis: You know, we build websites. that’s kind of the core thing of what we do, but what we often see in a lot of websites is a failure of a call to action. We have this phrase in web development. It’s called a call to action. it’s a button that points out exactly what you want the person who’s visiting that website to do.

What is the most important thing they could do? The same thing when we’re communicating to try to connect with people, we have to give them what we call a plan. So that’s the next hook is what is the plan? What is it that you’re wanting them to do? Typically, that’s going to be done in three steps.

People love a simple three step plan. This isn’t the exact plan. This isn’t a full encompassing plan of everything they need to do, but it is a general plan that demonstrates your authority, your competency, but also makes it easy for them to make the next step. And what’s important in that is that you’re going to Give them an easy first step that ultimately leads them to the thing that they’re really looking for.

That, that’s where this all starts to kind of tie together. What was the thing that they wanted to begin with? Well, you’re gonna show and demonstrate how the plan that you have will lead them to that. So whether that is, hey, you know, for churches it’s often going to be, attend a service is the first step.

Attend the service, connect with, some new visitor, or connect with some new friends, and then ultimately maybe find the community that you’ve been looking for. Now that’s not all inclusive. We all know that there’s a lot more to that, but what that is is an inspirational plan that makes it easy to think, What do I need to do next?

Well, I just need to go to a service. And if I do that, then I can make the next best step towards the things that I’m really looking for and that I really want.

[00:17:17] JimBo: Okay. So, how would that look? In a sermon, is that what we like, three point sermons? I mean, what would that, because I think about one of the things I’ve learned is that research has shown us a large majority of people do not possess the cognitive capacity to hear abstract thoughts that we teach out of the word, but particularly in this context, when we’re preaching and this was huge for me to think about, I could expose the text really well.

I remember even at redemption at one point, this is, as I was learning this point I’m making to you, somebody said, I hear you, I’m bought in. I want to be on mission. I don’t know what to do. you’re going to have to give me some action steps.

You’re gonna have to give me something to do. And so I was talking with somebody about it, a mentor, and they said, The large majority of people has been shown do not possess the cognitive ability to take abstract thought and turn it into an actual action step. So I think as we communicate the truth of the gospel, the beauty of the word of theology, it’s important for us to remember that and make sure we’re making some clear, actionable next steps for people so that they can move in the direction that God has for them.

And we can help them get that way in a way that’s Ephesians 4, 11. that God has given leaders to the church to equip the saints to do the work of ministry. Part of that equipping is making it clear to them what are some next steps for them to take.

[00:18:44] Wesley Lewis: Yeah, what I think is important about what you’re saying there is identifying our own biases. Like what’s obvious to us is not obvious. to other people. And we get so blinded to that. I mean, I for sure was, you know, when I was in ministry full time, it just was one of those things, you know, it seems obvious to you, but it’s not obvious to them.

And that’s part of where this framework helps you lay out those steps so that you say them to your audience so that they understand exactly what you’re looking for. the important thing is that there is this call to action. What are you really Asking them to do, whether it’s raising their hand to signify making a decision, whether it’s talking to a pastor after the service, maybe it’s attending a special class, maybe it’s, filling out a card.

Just know you need to have that one particular point of action, that action point that says, Here’s obviously what you need to do next, and so that they understand. And it’s obvious to them. And that’s what really helps them make decisions. Cause when we don’t do that, people don’t make decisions.

and then we miss out on opportunities because of that.

[00:19:50] JimBo: So we give them the call to action. What’s the rest of the process to kind of land the plane and make sure they take that call to action?

[00:19:57] Wesley Lewis: Yeah. So the last two parts of the framework are really, Success and failure. So the first part of that is success. What does success look like for them if they take your, if they listen to you, they go through your actions, I mean if they go through your plan, they take the action. what does success look like?

How is their life made different and better? So sprinkling in some of those things. And you want to lead with this because it’s something that is aspirational for them. It makes them say. I can do that. I can, you know, be a part of that. I want to be a part of that. And they begin to mentally paint a picture, and I think they call it narrative transportation, where we start to put ourselves in a story to help us understand my life could be that way.

And that’s what we call buy in. They just start to buy in. The other part of that is failure, okay? And we’re not necessarily leading or it’s not the predominant thing that we’re communicating, but it is important for us to say, what’s really at stake here? if they don’t. make the decision that we’re calling them out to make.

Potentially, what could they lose? What could it cost them? And we’re not trying to scare them to motivate them, but we’re just trying to make sure we’re communicating reality to them. And so when we take those things and we put them all together, it gives us such a great, Pull of words and, assets to pull from to be able to communicate clearly in a way that connects with our audience.

So as we’re talking about success, they’re thinking about what their life could be like, you know, when they think about failure, they’re thinking about, okay, I don’t want my life to be like that. And ultimately. in StoryBrand, it’s often said that, you are not the hero, and we often think about Jesus being the hero, and he is the hero, but everyone wants to be a hero in their own story, and it’s about creating a path, coming alongside them as a guide, understanding what they want, identifying those problems, giving them a plan of action, painting them a picture of success.

And also there’s a little bit of risk involved there and help them understand what that is, ultimately leading them to a place where they have transformed from just being a person for us that didn’t know Jesus the one that does and their life is so much better for it.

[00:22:11] JimBo: I think about as you talk about the, you know, kind of landing the plane on success and failure. it makes me think of the end of the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus has taught all these wonderful truths of the Sermon on the Mount. And then he lands with, if you do everything that I’ve just said, and you follow the words that I’ve given Then it’s like you built your house on, on the rock.

And when the storm comes, cause it will come, then your house will be able to withstand the storm. But if you don’t, then it’s like you’ve built your house on shifting sand. And when the storm comes and it’s going to come, then your house is going to fall with it. And he’s made it clear there, based off of what he’s taught, this is what success looks like.

This is what failure looks like. This whole framework is not just for preaching. What are some other application points? ministry leaders could consider thinking through the StoryBrand framework in.

[00:23:05] Wesley Lewis: So, I mean, whether you’re creating an event for, maybe kids event or youth event, This is a tool I wished I had when I was a youth pastor, the event to know if it’s really helping someone with a problem. and so that’s where all these questions come in that you can use these even just in decision making, you know, we think about this from even our own business perspective and how we’re trying to help the churches that we come alongside, you know, we’re asking constantly, what do they want?

What are you looking for? What are the problems that we’re helping to solve? How can we, what does success look like for the churches that we work with? what’s at stake? what’s failure look like and how do we want to help them transform in their own story? to being, you know, the hero. So for us, there’s a lot of different ways that you can apply that to your life.

So whether it’s even personally, I’ve heard Donald Miller basically take this framework and, apply it on a personal level, to business, to ministry, to speaking. It’s just a good way to help you think through a problem that ultimately leads to much clearer communication that connects with people.

[00:24:13] JimBo: Well, thanks for coming on and sharing that with us. two final questions for you. One, how can our listeners be praying for you and your ministry? And then after that, would you be willing to pray for our listeners? Amen.

[00:24:28] Wesley Lewis: thank you for asking. So, some ways that, the listeners could be praying for me, you know, from a personal perspective. We, you know, real life, Parents are getting older. decisions have to be made around that here soon. So just trying to figure out some ways to honor and love my parents, through some difficult decisions and just as they get older.

So just be praying for me that God would just continue to give me wisdom in that area of my life. And then also just as a business, we’ve got some really, really great opportunities to build some tools that are very needed. And we want to identify those needs and come along the church in, all its different levels and capacities, to be able to equip them with tools that help them reach more people for Jesus.

So we’ve got some great things we’re working on. just be praying that those things will go well and, be received well. And, we’re looking to see what kind of things that God does with those things. So, all right. Well, I’ll go ahead and pray. Father, thank you for just this opportunity and for, Lord, just lift up all the pastors that are.

Listen to this podcast right now and are just asking themselves, Am I communicating the things that I want to communicate? Lord, I pray for the churches that they’re in, for the people that they serve, for the opportunities that you give them. Lord, I pray for faithfulness in their life, in their marriages, in their families, and in the way that they, share the gospel.

Lord, I pray that, God, you would just give them a clarity in their own mind of how they can serve you more and serve you better, God, that they would have a clear conscience at night when they lay down Lord, knowing that they have done, all the things that you have asked them to do. And Father, just thank you for this opportunity again, and pray this all in Jesus name, Amen.