[00:00:00] JimBo Stewart: Here we are back at the bootcamp. Hope you’re ready for the next episode. I’ve got some guests here today that are the sons of a previous guest. I’ve had on Richard Blackabee before. And you guys have all enjoyed that episode today. I bring on his sons, guys, if you would just introduce yourselves to the replant bootcamp,

[00:00:19] Mike Blackaby: Yeah. Thanks for having us. my name is Mike. I’m a church planter over in Victoria, British Columbia, which is on Vancouver Island. We’ve been here since 2018. my, my family and I, I got four, four little kids. Two of them were born here. and they all just got their dual citizenship. So I got a family of six, all dual citizens now between the U S and Canada.

[00:00:40] JimBo Stewart: that’s awesome.

[00:00:41] Daniel Blackaby: Yeah, and I’m Daniel Blackaby and I live just south of Atlanta. I actually have the opportunity to work with our father, Richard Blackaby at Blackaby Ministries where I do several roles of kind of online Bible study material and I run a ministry for just helping equip Christians to think you know, more purposefully about pop culture and entertainment and trends and just sort of navigate that as a Christian.

So I’ve been in that for about the last five years.

[00:01:08] JimBo Stewart: Yeah, Daniel, tell us just briefly about the collision, and our listeners, I think it’s a resource they, very likely would want to tap into.

[00:01:16] Daniel Blackaby: Yeah. So I run the, we call it the collision. You can find it at the website, the collision. org and really just helping Christians to, there’s a lot of hot takes and anger and opinions out there. There’s not always a lot of just thoughtful. You know, engaging with what’s out there, listening, and kind of trying to go at a, maybe a deeper level that maybe can sometimes be uncomfortable for, for Christians, but, but is, I think there’s just a lot of value in understanding the culture and the stories that are out there.

So, so we review kind of all the major movies that are out there. you know, trying to help Christians make good choices, but also, you know, dialogue with the worldviews and the messages and some of the stuff that, that’s in these films. And we have articles and we have a podcast to the faith and pop culture every week, or we just have really honest discussions just about, Hey, what’s going on in culture?

What are the big stories and how as Christians, can we not, you know, not just criticize it, but actually engage with it and maybe even learn from it. I

[00:02:10] JimBo Stewart: Alright, so speaking of culture, you guys have co written a book together, Straight to the Heart, communicating the gospel in an emotionally driven culture. Talk to us a little bit about the overview of this book and why you guys decided to write it.

[00:02:25] Mike Blackaby: Well, Daniel and I both did doctoral work in, apologetics. And so we, we read a lot of the apologetics material that was out there engaging with, you know, skeptics and the big questions people have about faith and lots of really good stuff out there. But, but we were seeing that most of it was coming from a little bit more of like a, like a rational point of view or what, what’s the evidence, what’s the logic and, and all that’s really good.

but we were seeing that, there wasn’t a whole lot out there that we could recommend to people or that we could even engage with that dealt with the, the emotional side of people. And so, so much of the apologetics and that sort of thing was, was like at a head level, but not so much at a heart level.

And I guess the more we, we started putting our finger on the pulse of culture and, reading psychology and different things, we just realized that, that people are actually driven more by their emotions than by their reason. And both are important, but typically people are, driven through life.

They navigate life by their emotions. And so, so we were like, what, what is there out there that deals with that from a biblical perspective, you know, what, what does the Bible say about that? And so it was a lot of stuff we were just interested in anyways, but also a lot of things we were noticing in culture and in our ministries.

And so it was really fun for the two of us to come together with a lot of the things that we both are into, like, like stories, storytelling, art, culture, all that stuff and saying, what does, what does scripture teach us about this? Yeah. And how could maybe that be helpful to those who are trying to navigate a world that oftentimes can seem very bewildering because emotions tend to be dialed up real high.

And often, that’s portrayed as a really bad thing. Like look at the world today. It’s, it’s super emotional and, and that’s a bad thing. And, and it can have negative outlets. But, our approach was what if that’s actually a really good opportunity for the church. And so we, we took more of a positive, approach to that.

Say what, what could we do with this? the times in which we live.

[00:04:26] JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think for our listeners in churches that are in need of revitalization or replanting, a lot of times they’re in churches that are full of mostly, senior adults and, maybe more historically connected to that, church. rational culture before we became, more, more of the heart driven in the way that we see a lot of modern culture.

And I think there’s a tendency in, some pastors to, to swing the, swing one way or the other real, real far, right? So either, in reaction to that, they, think, man, I just don’t understand how to engage in this heart culture or. How do I actually bring them into the conversation while also shepherding these senior adults that I have?

Or, and so they just don’t do it, or they completely swing all the way in a way that leaves out the senior adults. talk to us about the differences between a head culture and a heart culture and how a pastor could try to navigate both of those worlds as they’re trying to renew a church. Mm.

[00:05:32] Daniel Blackaby: think in some ways, obviously, we’re, you know, every one of us is created as someone that has a head and a heart, and we’re all emotional. We all, you know, have the ability to varying degrees to reason and think and think logically. So in some ways, human nature doesn’t change. We’ve always been rational.

We’ve always had emotions, even in even the most, you know, rational minded people during sort of what we call a head culture. We’re still fundamentally emotional beings. I think what has changed is not necessarily people. As much as just the culture, I think what we call a heart culture, we don’t mean that people are just more, you know, outwardly emotional and, you know, you just walk through the grocery store and everyone’s crying and has tissue.

It’s not that kind of emotional, but, but that sort of the, you know, the values of the heart have been elevated as sort of the, the prime, you know, motivation for action, or that’s what we, It’s, you know, how we determine truth, even, or what we want to pursue. It’s not necessarily, you know, that we’re driven by, you know, culturally, just, you know, pros and cons lists, and, you know, the logical evidence.

But what is, what does this feel like? What is this, you know, in my heart? What do I feel about this thing? And, you know, it either repulses me, or it engages me, and that becomes sort of the, you know, the, the prime way that we, that we navigate that. So I think, in some ways, we’re, you know We’ve always been emotional, but it just seems that sort of there’s been a paradigm shift in our culture that has, you know, kind of widespread, just elevated those aspects above and beyond, you know, more the rational, considerations.

[00:07:06] Mike Blackaby: Yeah. And I would just add, as you’re trying to navigate that sort of a culture, in your church, important to remember that, all generations are a combination of, of the head and the heart. the younger generation seems to be. primary example these days of, of elevating emotion to a higher authority.

but at the same time, we, we all pursue the things that we love, right? Like, like that, that is what drives us through, through life. And so, The young and the older in churches, they’re, they’re both pursuing what they love. They’re both trying to engage with what their, what, what their heart has latched onto.

And so, and so I think oftentimes for, for us as pastors, we want to, we want to give them like the, the true and the good, but sometimes miss out on the beautiful. And those. Three things should always be together. And so there’s this sense of like, how do I speak to, to the issues of the heart? And it doesn’t mean that I leave the logic and reason that stuff out of it.

It just means when I’m preaching or even when I’m engaging people I have to realize that there’s certain things that at a deep fundamental level in them that are, that are driving them. And I can actually give them a whole lot of truth at a head level, but if I don’t engage their heart. I’ve not really engaged the whole person.

And so, and so once you start to, to figure that out, once you start to see sort of, and you can, you have to look past some of the rhetoric and stuff because people get real emotional and they, and they do, you know, the young people might get emotional about different things, but, but older folks, they, they’re passionate about, you know, the things that they like and the way that they think things should be.

And just like we all are. Okay. And, and so sometimes the, the conversation can get emotional and get heated. But if you step back and you sort of look beneath the surface and start asking yourself, like, what’s motivating that, like, what, why are they so, like, why are they so invested in, in this? And, you know, like the classic examples of you’re going to make a change to your church building or something, and you’re gonna change the carpet color or, you know, and, and people like get, get real invested in that.

And it’s like, well, so why though? Like, why, why are they? So invested in that. And that goes down, not necessarily to like a, a logical level, but an emotional level, I have some emotional investment in this. And, and I, so I think just having an awareness of the heart level, what is really driving people can, can help to infect effectively engage them.

Because if you miss the heart level. Then oftentimes you’re not you’re not nearly as effective in leadership or in ministry or discipleship As you’ve been called to be I think because I think jesus calls us to engage at a heart level, too

[00:09:58] JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think this reminds me of one of the things that we focus on in training replanters and revitalizers is we, it can be a mistake as a new pastor to come into a church that has come into decline, struggling, you’re trying to bring new life into it, and to act like everything that’s happened before you was a mistake and everything’s got to be brand new.

And so one of the things that I’ve encouraged guys to do is become a expert on the history of your church. And, and just taught, you know, Go tell, tell the story, tell the narrative of why God put this church here in the first place. What was the original vision? What was the heartbeat behind it? And how do we recapture that heartbeat in a way that helps us continue to move forward?

And so What are some other examples or ways of, you know, using narrative, using story in the way that we lead, in the way that we preach, in the way that we engage that that pastors could consider because again, I always think of things almost in like this, not dichotomies, but we have, we seem to have extremes on either end of every good thing that we air, you know, and pastors do this a lot, I think, especially when it comes to engaging with both the head and the heart in the sense of either they gauge all rational and they just expect, I told you this and it’s true.

And so, because I told you this and it’s true, you’ve got to respond to it or they just bring. Man, a whole lot of just great narrative, great storytelling, great emotional appeal. And you hear what they’re saying. It’s like, golly, that was, that was fun. That was engaging. It was exciting, but there was no word.

There was no you know, foundation to it. And so I, I do believe there’s a lot of power in finding a way to approach both of those, both of those. But I think narrative is one of those that we don’t think about enough in the way that we lead, in the way that we communicate.

[00:11:55] Mike Blackaby: I would just jump in real quick and then let daniel speak into this. I would say what, what you said is exactly right of learn the history of your church and I’ve never replanted a church. So I don’t, I don’t have, don’t have that experience, but, but what I have seen is that is that narrative is so powerful.

And psychologically, like so much of our identity and Dan McAdams is a psychologist that’s really gotten into this so much of how we view ourselves come from the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we see ourselves in and so and so when you’re talking about like the story of the church that you’re at or these different stories, you’re you’re going to a deep level of how People see their identity.

And so and so if if you can find a way to take that story But then continue it and help people to and you and you talk in terms of like the story’s not over You know, like God God has been doing this work and he will continue to do this work but there’s new chapters ahead and and it’s gonna build on what has come before and that sort of thing and and talk in terms of like You You are part of this story because what narrative does is it helps us make sense of our place in the world and in all sorts of ways and you know, Whether it’s a political election or whatever else like those who tell the best stories almost always win, right because if if you can tell a story doesn’t matter what all the the reason and logic and that side of it is If you can tell a story that people can find themselves in, then that’s, that’s very powerful in leading and influencing people.

It can also be very dangerous, obviously, because, because it’s a powerful thing and stories can be wielded for good or for bad. But but I would say, yeah, as a, as a leader Helping the people in your ministry come to find themselves in, in the story of your church is is a, is a powerful way to, to bring unity but also to kind of move people forward into that next chapter.

[00:13:57] Daniel Blackaby: Yeah, well, I think too, our, you know, stories have always been. And I think stories are part of our DNA as Christians. If you just go to scripture, you know, given about 44 or so percent of the Old Testament’s narrative, you know, a lot of the New Testament’s narrative, Jesus, you know, says, didn’t speak any of these things without telling a parable, you know, he was the best storyteller that there was.

There’s always just been power in in stories to sort of get behind the defenses, not in a manipulative way, but. Just it’s hard to guard your heart against how you react to a story the same way Maybe you can you know guard against just sort of propositional truth that you’re told and doctrine or you know arguments Whatever the the situation is whether it’s you know apologetics or whether it’s in the church and it’s a sermon But just there’s something about stories that just make you see even the same truths Through a different perspective and a different lens and things that maybe you’ve, you’ve kind of conceptually you’ve heard before, but now, you know, they have flesh and you can, you can engage with them in a different way.

And I think one of the things too, that we get in, in our book is, you know, part, you know, I think our culture today is primed for stories. It’s very much driven by, you know, experiences and live narratives and, and all of those things. But. You know in part of as the church that means we can tell more stories, you know, the culture is primed to To listen to testimonies maybe in ways that they weren’t, you know, 20 years ago when they wanted more want to prove it You know, that’s what you say, but you know, I want the evidence where you know the culture today It’s very much, you know values your own personal story and tell me your story And you know, I think that offers an opportunity for the church that maybe we we didn’t have Several years ago and I think one of the things too that we explore in our book is So what is it about stories that, that resonate and not just that we tell stories and, you know, this specific story was interesting to me, but what is it about a narrative and just the, you know, the structure of a story that engages us in a way that, you know, maybe a college lecture, you know, makes us, you know, start to tune out.

But we can sit through a two hour movie, you know, without blanking or, you know, not going to the bathroom or whatever, because what is it about sort of that structure and how can we incorporate, you know, some of that sense of discovery and purpose and, you know, the, you know, the, the whole arc of the narrative, how can we incorporate just that structure into like our Bible studies or our sermons too?

[00:16:16] JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think when we, when we think through that correctly, we can get a lot further. I know one of the critiques and the challenges of maybe the younger generation is, is how much authority they’ve given to heart culture has made engaging with them on propositional truth. One of the, one of the things I highlighted in your book, because it was so interesting to me this word, because I, I’ve, I’ve experienced this.

You, you write on page 32, if rationality rules as king of a culture, then opposing ideologies are an invitation for debate and discussion on a fairly even playing field using the shared rules of logic, reason, and evidence. And one, I think you talk about politics. I think we’ve seen like the loss of that in the way that we see things debated these days.

We don’t see that. And it’s one of the things that you hear people bemoan. But you go on to say, if emotionalism sits on the throne, then criticism is perceived as a challenge to personal identity and may even be considered a threat. Once truth becomes based on subjective feelings, then disagreement does not just make you wrong.

It often makes you hateful, since you are not seen to be refuting an abstract idea, but an individual person. And I think this is one of the, the challenges that I, I’ve run into with I’ve had I had a friend who has decided to go a different theological, you know, direction than me. And I tried to maintain that friendship, but he one day Even though we’ve never gotten an argument or a debate over that subject, just because I believe differently than he does, he told me that I, my beliefs were violence against him.

And that was the first, that was, that was probably about five years ago. It was the first time I ever heard that. And I, I was, I was, I mean, absolutely bewildered by the idea. It’s like, violence. I mean, I’ve literally not even risen my voice to you. Like, I mean, like, how could you even say that what I’ve done is violence?

Just because I believe something differently than you believe. And so talk to us about that reality of how to engage in that aspect of the kind of that, you know shift in, in how ideologies are perceived and interacted with, and how as a pastor trying to shepherd our congregation and engage our culture and community around us, we can navigate that reality.

[00:18:33] Mike Blackaby: Yeah, well, it, it’s really hard. And, and that is, that is probably one of.

[00:18:39] JimBo Stewart: Cole, Cole, I was really hoping you had like

a, just, you know,

here’s step one,

[00:18:42] Mike Blackaby: there’s no silver bullet for that one. It, it is hard. And I think recognizing that, that that is one of the difficulties that comes with this new territory that we’re navigating is that people take things so much more personally because like we mentioned earlier, you’re, you’re talking about identity things.

And so if you challenge the story that they have bought into, whether it’s, you know, Like you’ve got two political candidates that are offering different stories of sort of of reality And and so if you challenge that story at at an emotional level people are going to feel like you’re challenging them their their identity You’re not just talking about abstract facts.

You’re like challenging what they have attached their heart to and so I think I think, and I’ll let Daniel speak into this some, too, because I think he’s got a really good perspective on this, but the, like the classic apologetics verse, you know, comes from 1 Peter 3, 15 and 16, to says, always be prepared to give an answer to those who ask for the reason, for the hope that you have.

But that second part, do this with gentleness and respect. And I think, I think listening to other people’s stories has become so important. And we were always quick to want to tell our story and to, you know, to sort of give our perspective, but. But I think being a good listener and whether you agree with the other person’s take on, on things or not being a good listener is actually a really hard skill that very few people have, and it’s one that takes practice.

And and so I think listening to, to what somebody is saying, like really listening, not, not thinking about what you’re going to say next, but, but listening to what they’re saying. And being able to, to like. State that back to them. Like, Hey, what I hear you saying is, is this, like, I think it gives a certain amount of legitimacy to how they feel.

And I, and I think sometimes in an, in an emotional culture, those who maybe lean away from, away from that a little bit, they want to be very dismissive. Of of kind of emotions that they don’t understand and it’s like well, this seems to be a big deal for you But like that’s dumb. Why why is that a big?

Well that that typically doesn’t go anywhere other than just Introducing new emotions like anger into the mix But if you can if you can kind of understand and say like look I I get that that you have these emotions that you feel this way that that you’re passionate about this And and those emotions in and of themselves You Are not necessarily false or wrong, right?

Like you’re, you’re experiencing those things. You are passionate about this. Now, how we direct those emotions and those feelings and stuff can, can have, you know, better or worse ways to do that. But I think listening and, and affirming to a certain degree what somebody is feeling, not necessarily saying based on those feelings, you know, This is what truth is not, not going with them all the way there, but just at a basic level, listening and, and not being too dismissive of sort of what’s going on with them at a heart level tends to bring the temperature of the room down a little bit because it’s just showing gentleness and respect in a way that is so often kind of thrown out the door when we disagree with each other.

And, and even like you mentioned, it can still, even if you are doing that, people can still be. dismissive of it, which is an emotional response, right? It’s, it’s not a rational response. It’s saying, well, no, if, and, and it’s kind of a defensive response, but but I think listening is, is a good first step before, before just charging ahead. Daniel, do you have, you have

good stuff

[00:22:22] Daniel Blackaby: Yeah. And one of the main, I think one of the main metaphors too, that we use in our book to sort of describe that tension and that approach is of movies where we say, you know, the more, the, the, the more logical kind of head culture, you know, propositional, you know, that’s like the plot outline of the story of the movie.

That’s the Wikipedia page that has the, you know, the straight facts where, you know, the, the heart language, the stuff that we, that we get into. You know, that’s the soundtrack. That’s what makes you feel the emotions that was makes you know that brings you into that story and kind of animates that story.

And I think when we look at our culture, you see a lot of, you know, soundtrack without the narrative, you see a lot of emotions and music and, and just, you know, not necessarily even wrong, you know, these are natural emotions or desires, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. but just not aimed in the right place you know, kind of wayward.

And, you know, I think that’s what a lot of Christians and, you know, the church has reacted to is it just seems there’s emotion for emotion’s sake. There’s no, you know, there’s no content to this. It’s all over the place. And whereas, you know, you need that narrative structure to, to give guidance, to, to point people in the right direction.

And I think for some of those, like the, you know, the encounter you were just sharing about, I think that’s sort of where the heart language comes into play, is not that you, you know, you just set aside any sort of, you know, the narrative, or the, you know, the truth, you know, the hard truth, or this is the biblical truth, or you still need that stuff, but, you know, without beauty, without sort of the soundtrack to, to just aim them in that direction to soften their heart, to, to, you know, awaken something within them, whether that’s just a sense of awe at God’s beauty or, you know, you know, art that’s speaking to them or just gentleness that catches them off guard.

You know, there’s multiple scriptures, you know, that talk, you know, talk about that, but that’s sort of where that, you know, almost like you start with the heart language. You start, you start by appealing to that, that, you know, the shared values, you awaken that within them and kind of, and lead them to a point where you can have those conversations about, you know, doctrine, truth, but in a way where you have that kind of shared trust.

[00:24:27] JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I think pastors are listeners. You’ve got to think through how do you’re speaking the heart language of not only the younger generation, but all of the people that you’re interacting with the, that you’re shepherding, that you’re trying to reach. And these guys have done a great job in this book of.

Breaking down kind of in part one, learning the heart language, and then part two, speaking the heart language, specifically in story, beauty, art, desire. And then the last one, community. We don’t have a lot of time, but I would love for you to speak just briefly, because I think this is one that the local church has such a unique opportunity to be a part of speaking into the heart language, is in community.

Give us one or two points that somebody could listen and think through as they’re pastoring a church in need revitalization on how to focus in on communities, speak to the heart of

[00:25:13] Mike Blackaby: Yeah, well, I think you can look and see all sorts of examples and statistics and all sorts of things in our culture. of a breakdown of community. Loneliness is at like an epidemic level. It’s a health crisis. The surgeon general, the former surgeon general of us wrote a whole big thing on loneliness is, is like the number one, Like worry right now.

And so, and so you think, wow, like this is, this is a huge issue. And yet, then you look at what the church is and how the church is designed to be. And you’re like, this is God’s answer. to this problem. Like this is God’s answer to, to loneliness and and everybody wants community and they’ll find it somewhere they’ll find it in online forums.

They’ll find it at, you know, nerdy dragon con conventions. I mean like wherever they have to go to find it, people are desperate for community. And And I, and I just sort of think, I, I, I think most of the people who come to visit a church who get plugged into a church don’t necessarily, and, and it doesn’t mean that this doesn’t happen sometimes, but I think it’s not primarily that people have these like doctrines in their head that they want to go and verify at church, and they’re like, you know, I just want to learn more about like, Almost always people come as visitors to a church on the arm of somebody else.

And, and oftentimes the people who I’ve found who stick in a church are those who get plugged into the community side of it. And it doesn’t mean that the doctrine side of it is not important. It just means that. The doctrine side isn’t typically what sticks them there. It’s the community side. And then, and then as they experience community, they learn doctrine, they learn theology, but but primarily what is like holding them there is, is they found community with other people.

And so, and so that’s what the heart language does. Like the heart language kind of seeps underneath the doorways, past the defenses and, and gets ahold of people. And that almost like makes the head knowledge more effective and it, and, and sort of make sense of that. Because, because they’ve already been gripped by their heart, they’re already invested in something.

And so I think the church has a perfect opportunity because our, I don’t know that our culture has ever been as lonely. Or as depressed as it is right now. And so for us to offer genuine Christian hospitality is, is maybe one of the biggest, most effective witnesses that we have. And what it’s going to do is it’s going to help people to feel the gospel, even before they’ve come to terms with believing it in their head.

They’re going to experience the gospel through the love and community that they find at your church.

[00:28:03] JimBo Stewart: That’s excellent. Hey, thank you guys for being willing to come on to the podcast today. Tell your dad I said, Hey if, if you would just very briefly share with us some ways that our listeners can be praying for you. And then after that, would one of you guys close us in prayer and pray for our listeners?

[00:28:19] Daniel Blackaby: We can pray for our ministry, you know, it’s been a, it’s been a turbulent last year and a half with Black Wheat Ministries with losing our grandfather, grandmother and aunt Carrie. And so there’s a lot of changes and. So just navigating that, but also just, you know, trying to think through, so what does that mean for our ministry?

How do we reach the next generation? How do we transition? So, you know, there’s a lot of things that we’re working through and just would appreciate prayers for how we, how we do that in a wise way.

[00:28:46] Mike Blackaby: Yeah, I would say for us this has been a pretty full summer so far and still more to come of doing a lot of community outreach and we’re involved in a lot of community events and trying to get out there in the community and, and share the gospel and be in, you know, represent Jesus out there.

To those who don’t know them and so if your listeners could pray for us just that we would That those seeds that are planted the holy spirit would draw people to himself and that we would be effective in doing that ministry out in our community So we’ve got more things coming up, but we’ve already done a lot.

And so just that god would use those things for his glory And I’m happy to pray, pray for your listeners too.

 God, we’re thankful for who you are. We thank you that you reached out to our hearts that you are not just true, but that you are good and you’re beautiful. And and you engage us at a holistic level. And so we ask that you would do that for the listeners of this podcast, that they would be encouraged today that they would come to know you at, at a level of the head and the heart not just true facts about you.

But also come to experience you and your love at a heart level. May they know you deeper. We ask these things in your son’s name.

Amen.