JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp, back at it again. I hope you’re ready for the next episode today. I’m excited to have another special guest joining us. We’ve got Brent Leatherwood, president of the ERLC. Brent, introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Brent Leatherwood: Jimbo. It’s great to be with you. I’ve had the privilege over the last couple of months of you walking alongside our team, with just kind of some team building activities. And I’m just really thankful that, you’ve been able to do that with us. And now I’ll get the privilege. Of being with you here on this podcast.

And so, really just appreciate the opportunity. yeah, as you said, I have the privilege of being the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. but, first and foremost, I’m husband to my wife. we’ve been married 12 years. We have three wonderful children, here in, Tennessee.

and then probably the next thing I would say is I’m a, I’m a churchman. I serve as a deacon at my local church, here in [00:01:00] Nashville. And, I’m sure as many of your listeners are aware, right, us deacons, we’re the servants. we’re the helpers. We, we look for odds and ends that we can do to help our pastor, to help folks in the pews, and to just serve, on the Lord’s day.

and that’s really the mindset that, I’m bringing here to the RLC. We have a team full of servants. who are thinking through, how we can, help our pastors, how we can develop timely resources for our pastors, how we can serve them. and so it’s just a, it’s a natural place for, for me to have landed though, totally unexpected.

I’ll admit when I first came to work here, seven years ago, but it has been an incredible journey and I truly love. getting to hear from our pastors, understanding what it is that they are wrestling with within their congregations, within their communities. And, taking that back to the team and trying to figure out that we can be a voice that, provides hope, if you will, hope that [00:02:00] comes from the gospel, in these, often confusing and sometimes, chaotic times that we find ourselves in.

JimBo Stewart: Man, I really enjoyed the time I got to have with you guys and your staff, and doing some leadership development stuff. One of the things that you and I discussed when I was there is how there’s probably a lot of pastors and, lay leaders, deacons, associational leaders that don’t necessarily truly understand what is the ERLC, what does the ERLC do, what is its role in Southern Baptist life.

And maybe, even our listeners are wondering why in the world is the Replant Bootcamp having the ERLC on its pod, which we’re going to get to that. We’re going to get to, I think, a really important Part of this discussion, but first I just want you to kind of lay the land force of what is the ERLC and for your average Southern Baptist listening to this, what do they need to know and understand about what the ERLC is?

Brent Leatherwood: Sure. So, this commission, has been a part of, SBC life [00:03:00] now for, well over a hundred years, this institution has existed for a long time. to serve our convention. It’s gone through several name changes over the years. probably one that maybe some older listeners will remember is the CLC, the Christian Life Commission.

but it then changed and became what it is today, the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. And, generally when I’m talking to folks, I describe us as the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention. a lot of individuals will immediately think, oh, well, so, so you’re the lobbyist. No, no, that’s, that’s not what we are, right?

We, we don’t, we don’t do, we don’t do PAC checks. we don’t do voter scorecards, things like that. No, we are obviously out there articulating the views, of our churches, in the public square. And oftentimes that is to elected officials and that is to, members of the media, helping them understand why Southern Baptists are so adamant about, protecting life, why we [00:04:00] believe in defending religious liberty and freedom of conscience, why we believe in marriage and family.

and what the Bible has to say about those issues. And, of course, out there making sure that folks understand the responsibilities that come with, the Imago Dei and human dignity. those, what I just described, are basically the four lanes, if you will. the four issue areas that the vast majority of our work tends to fall into, and that, we find in the ministry assignment that was given to us, by our convention of churches so, so long ago.

and so we’re really thankful. to have, that ministry assignment. It gives us a lot, to say grace over. And, and generally when I have this conversation, folks are mainly interested in that. It, is the external, portion of our ministry assignment. But at the same time, there is an internal focus, which is making sure that we are serving pastors and serving our churches and equipping [00:05:00] them.

to talk about all those issues and also inform them about the issues. that are all around us in the public square. and so that’s, that’s more of a internal focus. So we kind of have a dual mandate, uh, be that public policy arm that’s out there articulating Southern Baptist principles, but then coming alongside our pastors, our ministry leaders and folks in the pews to really help them understand what’s going on in the world, what’s going on in culture.

And I like to remind the team that it is actually that second part where we are walking alongside our churches that actually equips us to more effectively be messengers out there in the public square. So it is, it is from that service that we render to churches that we therefore are equipped to go out and proclaim what it is our churches believe about the issues.

of the day. and that, that distinctively Baptist voice, it, it makes a difference. when our [00:06:00]churches are together, and have these really developed consensus views, that makes a difference, in these, these public policy debates that are happening and these cultural debates that are happening.

JimBo Stewart: When you talk about the public square and equipping pastors to engage in the public square, with hope that, that’s really the crux of what I wanted to talk about today on the podcast because my boss, mark Clifton. When he defines what is success in a replant or revitalization, he says it is a culture of making cycles.

who make disciples, who make the community noticeably better. and there’s this aspect of where we talk about from our team, shepherding the heart of the congregation through two skill sets. One is gospel orientation and the other is missional focus. As gospel orientation is how do we shepherd the heart of the members back to the heart of the gospel, disciple our people to live in love like Jesus, with one another.

But then missional focus is for us, the [00:07:00] external, right? So how do we, how do we go from not just being a good, healthy family and body of Christ, but also missionaries in the context that God has given us in? And so, Talk to us, what does it look like for a local church, a local pastor, to engage well in their local public square?

What does that, what does that even mean, and what does that look like?

Brent Leatherwood: Yeah. So, maybe, maybe a, maybe a, Definitional, discussion is, is warranted at first. oftentimes I find when I am having conversations, along these lines, when I use that term public square, most individuals, their mind immediately jumps to the world of politics and, dealing with lawmakers.

And in some sense that’s understandable, especially if they’re talking to me, they’re often talking about issues that are being bandied about, in the political sphere. but I try and, widen their [00:08:00] view, if you will, for the public square to not solely just be focused on that. I would submit that the, the public square.

is certainly what goes on, in Capitol Hill or, your state legislature, or maybe even your city hall, but it’s also your daily interactions, with your neighbor down the street and getting to know, you know, getting to know them and what’s going on in their life or, visiting, you know, like I often do with fellow parents at the, at the ballpark at Little League games, or conversations with, with colleagues.

at work, and understanding, the challenges and joys that they may have in their life. There, there actually are political implications with even those, interactions. And so the public square, is much broader. than I think most people realize. And again, at one hand, I say it’s, it’s probably understandable.

There’s another part of it though, that’s a bit lamentable. and, and that’s just this, this modern, phenomenon we’re [00:09:00] seeing in our society where our politics are actually catechizing our people. and so when you say public square, and they want to jump to the latest thing that they’ve seen on cable news or on social media, from very, partisan actors, they want to just go into that area and again, we need to try and distance ourselves from that sort of, catechization of our, our people.

The second part of your question though was about, you know, what can local pastors do? I think that’s very important. I want to put the emphasis on local pastors. oftentimes we all want to get wrapped up in, anxiety or, delight or, disappointment about what may be going on in Washington.

I would submit that what is going on in your local community. in your local, town, your county commission meeting, your city council meetings. those often have far more impact on our daily lives than any one thing, [00:10:00] that is happening in our nation’s capital. And so local pastors need to be thinking through locally, in their local communities, how they can, be a helpful voice, a God honoring voice.

And so, make sure that you’re keeping that at the forefront of folks minds. And then the second thing I would say is, don’t be afraid to engage in helpful conversations about politics. the pulpit should be seen, as a place where people can come and learn about issues and what the Bible has to say.

About those issues. So in that sense, the pulpit is important for political formation and engagement. Now, when I say that, hear me say this,

JimBo Stewart: So, so are you saying I’m supposed to tell somebody who they’re supposed to vote for, how they’re supposed to vote, and if you don’t vote this way, you’re not a Christian.

Brent Leatherwood: exactly that, that’s where it goes, right? [00:11:00] And what I’m, what I’m trying to be very precise about is political formation and engagement, not partisan formation. and engagement. and we’re seeing, we’re seeing some of that out there. And that, that’s really, that honestly, I would want to talk with pastors about that.

Cause you’re not helping your people, understand, really what, scripture has to say on the issues of the day. We want Christians to be informed and engaged in this year for example, it’s an election year. but again, we’re not just talking about the presidential election. be thinking through city council elections and state legislative elections and school board elections.

We, we want Christians to be engaged in that, and not in some sort of, a weaponized way, where they just become a partisan tool. but no, in a, in a biblically informed way. because that is truly seeking the good of the city where God has planted us. And I would submit That the, the pulpit, the local church, that should be the place [00:12:00] where Christians are able to bring their questions.

Hey, pastor, I’m I, I’m wrestling with this. I, I saw this, or I read this in the newspaper, I saw this online, and I just, I don’t know what to think about it. I would encourage our pastors, our ministry leaders, or, or discipleship ministers, to, to allow folks to, to bring those questions to you. Because here’s the thing, if your church members.

feel that they can’t bring that to you and get some questions answered. Well, that leaves a vacuum and that vacuum will be filled by partisan voices. It will be filled by political hacks and it will be filled by operatives who end up telling your people, well, exactly what they want them to do. and oftentimes that is a very far cry from what scripture actually commands us to do, and we need to be obedient.

Um, so I, I maybe I have gone on a little long there on your question, but I think that’s really important to get that right.

JimBo Stewart: No, I think it’s, I think it’s a good distinction [00:13:00] of political, not partisan, and that it, we’re to be speaking at this from the perspective of biblical wisdom, and not our political party and even our preferences. I was thinking about even this morning, one of my daily habits is reading a chapter of Proverbs every day, whatever day of the month it is.

And today’s the 24th, the day that we’re recording. this will come out a week from now, but, in Proverbs, chapter 24, verse seven, it says, wisdom is too high for fools in the assembly at the gate. They must not open their mouths. And, I’ve been doing a deep dive study through the book of Proverbs.

And so I started reading in the commentary about that particular verse, because I knew we were going to have this conversation today. And I thought, man, that seems like it’s so connects to our conversation and Bruce Waltke, who’s considered a great Probably foremost expert on the book of Proverbs from a scholarly perspective.

Talks about when it says that wisdom is is too high for fools. It means that they lack what he he calls the wings of piety and humility that will [00:14:00] enable them to soar high enough to attain the heavenly wisdom needed for public affairs. And, he goes deeper into that idea in the commentary.

And, and. Whenever we approach public affairs, public issues, one, the Bible does tell us that we should, but it we got to do that with wisdom, with humility, walking in righteousness, making sure the gospel is the loudest thing, about us and that we are Biblically informed in how we engage in things, but also, I mean, I love how you take the public square, not just to the politics, but to other areas.

One of the things I often coach pastors to do, if they’re, especially if they’re newer or just now trying to engage their community and learn about their community is get connected to the closest school that they can. And, uh, man, cause that principal, I guarantee you knows, everything you need to know about that community.

And because it’s all represented right there in that school. I ended up getting to be on the school advisory council. I got to speak at city council on behalf of that [00:15:00] school for some things. And and listen, I am, I am not a politically engaged person, in large part, but it was just loving the community.

Like it was just, I, I wanted to be. a loving bright spot in that community, let them know that that little church in that community cares about their welfare and wants to advocate for them in the best ways that I can and create opportunities and relationships. And I was surprised at how many just amazing doors that God used that to open for me of even, I had a, a homosexual principal ask me to come, do a Bible study for their teachers in the morning voluntary because their morale was real low because they had had some bad things happen.

And he goes, man, I’m, I’m grasping at straws. Anything that’ll boost the morale around here, would you come once a week and, and just pour into our teachers? And I said, and, and, and here’s the deal, like. That door wouldn’t have been open if I hadn’t already had a position of, let me just be [00:16:00]here, no strings attached.

I just want to help. I just want to be a support to you. And so I think there are a lot of opportunities for pastors to engage in their public square in a lot of different ways. What are some of the obstacles and things to avoid as we look at that?

Brent Leatherwood: Well, so let, let me, underscore point that, that you were making with, a real life, example for folks. You don’t want the sum of again, political engagement, not partisan engagement, but political engagement. So, so biblically informed, God honoring political engagement. You don’t want. the sole way that you do that to be, a ballot, that is cast in, November for, let’s say, a, a pro life, constitutional amendment.

That’s great. That’s good. obviously we, we want to protect, pre born lives and serve their mothers. So that, that’s very important, but that can’t be the only thing. I would encourage people, again, to, uh, Along that same lines, in terms of proper [00:17:00] biblically oriented political engagement, go serve at your local pregnancy resource center.

help those mothers, understand the beauty of the, the life that is contained within them. and that is also a part of, of engaging the public square, because you’re helping a neighbor, understand, the full, wonder, of an issue, and, and hopefully, given an opportunity to maybe even, if they don’t know the Lord, have a gospel conversation with them that, that leads them to a life in Christ.

so, that’s a, that’s an example of, of what I mean. When you’re talking about. some of the things to be on the lookout for look as I hear myself, giving counsel to, to pastors, to utilize, their pulpit, I do want to say this, don’t become consumed, with trying to speak to each and every issue out there, because at that point you’re not preaching, you’re doing whack a mole, there’s [00:18:00] just too much that’s out there.

that might be on the minds of people, for you to realistically, be able to, help them understand the complexity of an issue or the nuance of an issue. so don’t hear me say that. So you, you’ve got to certainly practice, a good amount of discernment. and use your time wisely.

obviously, you are, giving your people, you are feeding your people, the word, each and every Sunday. so that, that is first and foremost, most important. but, uh, so I’ll go to a real life example from, from right here in Tennessee, actually, that I thought that this, this was done well. Back in 2014, I helped, get on the ballot a statewide amendment.

that was a pro life amendment and, there were a number of churches kind of on a spectrum trying to figure out how to engage this issue. And some folks wanted to, dive right in and, have, their churches be centers of [00:19:00] information, to learn about the issue. other pastors were, hey, I’m, I’m personally going to go out.

and help my community understand this in some sort of civic spaces. there were other pastors who said, you know, I, I don’t know that that is the option a is necessarily right for my church or option but, tell you what, this fall, I’m going to do a sermon series on the Imago Dei and what that means for us as Christians and for our voices that we utilize in the public square.

And there were so many, and I’m really proud to say this, there were so many Tennessee Baptist churches. that did that. it was amazing to stand back and watch and just hear different reports from around the state of pastors who are adopting that model. And ultimately I would, I would say that that was incredibly helpful.

For the passage of that amendment. so that’s I guess what I’m trying to say. If that kind of fleshes out a little bit, use discernment, speak wisely [00:20:00] and, speak appropriately and timely, to help your people. But don’t feel like you have to be the. The local fact checker, if you will, that that’s probably going to get you off course as well.

JimBo Stewart: I think that’s good wisdom in that letting, letting biblical truth be what guides how we engage with these things. Amen.

another opportunity I thought about, is Mark Clifton has, told me that in a rural context, the city council, Is a phenomenal opportunity for a pastor to become the pastor of that town and where in a urban context, like where I live, you might be able to sit in city council, but you’d be one of a lot of people that are sitting in And you may not stand out and I think you should still try to engage in that. Cause I’ve seen some good things happen in that, but there’s like a greater opportunity in a rural setting where you kind of become the chaplain of the city council and you become the church that when you hear a need and you go, Hey, our church is going to step up and help address that [00:21:00] need in our community.

And that becomes a great opportunity to shine a light of the gospel as your people serve your community well through the public square.

Brent Leatherwood: Oh, that, and that is so good. And look, especially in rural communities, resources, can be stretched in already, and just hands and feet to actually do things. can be very scarce. And so for a church to come in and say, Hey, we’ll, we’ll take on this initiative because we’re seeing this, this problem in our community.

You will find local mayors. local city council members, county commission members. They will applaud that and affirm that, because they, they uniquely understand particularly in those contexts, Hey, we’re, we’re all in this together. and so that is a wonderful opportunity. and maybe, on that same note, some other examples that I would provide of a, I think a helpful way to do this.

so I, I’m not one, whoever, uh, affirms, turning, your worship time over to, a politician or [00:22:00]elected official. I, I, I, that tends to send the wrong message. but maybe after service. If there’s, the opportunity to hold an informational gathering, for a local elected official about an issue that might be on the minds of a congregation, man, I, I think that’s great.

in so many areas, again, especially in our rural context, the church, obviously, it’s the house of the Lord, but other days of the week or other times, it can be a central place that the community feels, Hey, I’m, I’m going to come here and, and get some real help on an issue or understanding, why this official is, is doing this.

And, and that can be, that can be really good. and honoring and, and on that last point, honoring, I think it is proper for churches to say, Hey, uh, in our midst today is an elected official. And, this person, uh, they need to know that we, we pray for those in authority. and we’re thankful for the service that you’ve rendered to our community.

that’s, I, I think I’m, I’m good with that [00:23:00] and, and I applaud, churches that take that step. and especially if they do it at times again, where maybe it’s not, during worship, but maybe it’s some other event that is going on in the life of the church. I think that those are good and proper things.

JimBo Stewart: I think one other event that you can take advantage of is a lot of churches are polling centers, they are voting

centers and, man, don’t miss that opportunity, have your people on site, giving out free water bottles, offering to meet with people, to pray with them, take advantage of the fact that it’s your building that’s hosting this.

and again, not in a partisan way, do not do that, but, but in a loving our community, well. I think it’s a great opportunity that, I don’t want to see you miss. As we come towards the end of our time, here’s what I’d ask is, do you guys have some, something you could resources with that I could point pastors to and go, Hey, as you’re continuing to think through this, especially in an election year, check this link in the show notes.

What would that

Brent Leatherwood: Oh man. [00:24:00] Yeah, that’s a great question. Very timely. Uh, so obviously we’re in the midst of an election year. it’s, it’s prevalent, in our culture. so just recently, we released a new resource called the nations belong to God. it is an ERLC resource that has been, uh, I mean, met with a lot of enthusiasm, which I’m thankful for because it, it shows, that we are hitting on a felt need, within our convention of churches, we have had thousands of pastors and, ministry leaders, small group leaders request it.

You can download it on our site. I think we even have active now a direct shipping model. So if it’s something where you’re leading a group or maybe you’re leading a Wednesday night service. through a discussion. we can get that, ordered for you and shipped. so the nations belong to God.

It was authored by a former colleague of mine who’s now a professor at Southern Seminary, Andrew Walker. it is a wonderful resource and kind of done in a catechesis [00:25:00] style, that just talks about different issues and, the ways that pastors and ministry leaders should think through them, as well as some practical applications at the very end, that might be helpful, to, to pastors and, and folks who are leading, in any context, urban, suburban, or rural.

JimBo Stewart: Great. We’ll have a link to that in the show notes. Uh, Brent, thanks for taking the time to come on. If you would, just click Close us in prayer by praying over the pastors and ministry leaders that are trying to engage the public square with hope and walking in humility and wisdom.

Brent Leatherwood: That’s right. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Jimbo. Heavenly Father, Lord, thank you for being a good and gracious and merciful God. We certainly do not deserve that, Lord. And Father, thank you for appointing this time for this conversation with Jimbo. I hope that it was not just a helpful conversation. conversation for pastors, uh, and, and, and ministers and folks who are active, uh, within our church’s order.

But I hope it was a hopeful [00:26:00] conversation, uh, because we enter into all of these discussions and all of these interactions, whether it is with elected officials, whether it is with a reporter, whether it is our neighbor down the street, or maybe it’s with our neighbor that We, we don’t even see Lord, father.

I hope that we enter into all of those interactions with hope, the hope that comes from you, the hope that comes from the gospel. Uh, so father, just, lead us forward, into those conversations and those interactions. and Lord, just give us the words to say, and the actions to take Lord that bring you honor.

And glory, because that’s what we’re after already. so father, thank you for this time. Thank you for this opportunity in Jesus almighty name. Amen.

JimBo Stewart: Amen. Thanks for coming on.

Brent Leatherwood: All right. I appreciate you brother. Thank you.