JimBo Stewart: we are back at the bootcamp, replant bootcamp road show another Dallas edition here in the true Hilton hotel. T R U it’s like the mix between contemporary modern art and a dorm room.

Bob Bickford: It’s Ikea and Hilton

JimBo Stewart: had a baby. Yeah. It’s an interesting concept. Uh, as you say, in a true before second

Bob Bickford: podcast, I think our third podcast in the, uh, in the true, the first one.

The first one we did was with James new Janet’s gathering in

JimBo Stewart: South Carolina. That’s right. Yeah, that’s right there across from the South Carolina Baptist convention. They have a true, Hilton as well. Where here still with the Korean council of Southern Baptist. That’s headquartered here in Dallas, led by Dr.

James. He’s invited us to be a part of this church validation conference. And it, man, it’s been a blast just to, worship with these guys. Learn what these guys hear from them. Try Korean food and preach with translators, man. Yeah. Preach with translators, which is, that’s a hard thing to do. [00:01:00]

Bob Bickford: I mean, you’re doing one sentence or maybe a couple of sentences and then waiting and thinking ahead, and then you’re also trying to be engaging in emotional.

So it is a challenge.

JimBo Stewart: So here’s what, I don’t know what to do. Where do you look when the translators talking? I don’t

Bob Bickford: know where I look. I don’t have to. I’m gonna have to think about that now when I, I think I’m looking down at my notes or. Sometimes I’m looking in the faces to see. Cause because you and I are both, we kind of have crop feedback.

Right. So, when I’m speaking, I’m looking at the Korean guys and most of them speak English pretty well. Right? Yeah. So they’re listening to us and then they’ll look at us and then the translator will talk and they’ll look at the translator. Well, I’m watching them in the face to kind of see, and then also looking at what’s the next sentence that I need to say.

So there’s a lot going on. The nanoseconds. Yeah. Speaking,

JimBo Stewart: it’s a different kind of communication style for sure. and so for these couple of episodes that we record here, we wanted [00:02:00] to do podcasts versions of some of the talks that we gave, largely because these talks originated from questions. They submitted to Dr.

Khan. We talked to him about questions that these guys are asking in their churches, and so that we can work through those.

And I was assigned, how to reach younger people in your church. And like the next day after I got that assignment and started working on, I wasn’t Googling it or anything, but I came across this article from a couple of years ago. About this Methodist church that decided to replant, not using any of our strategies at all whatsoever.

their strategy was tell all the old people to stay away for two years, anybody over 60, we need you to just like, Not exist here for two years while we try to reach younger people. Got

Bob Bickford: it. Well, we need to track that down, to see how that went for them. I don’t, I don’t expect that. Yeah.

JimBo Stewart: I feel like that [00:03:00] couldn’t I mean, here’s the deal.

Maybe they resell a bunch of younger people. Maybe, I don’t know. It’s theirs. It just doesn’t end. Well, I don’t think it’s like, I think I may have told a story in here before. I know it told you a friend of mine who shoots videos is a videographer. And they were asked to do a video promo video for a church.

And the pastor told them to. Video, the older people, but just get, just get younger people in the video and not the older people. And man here, though, we can laugh at those because we’re not immediately involved in those. But if I were immediately involved in, I’d be very sad. Yeah. Cause it’s, I mean, it’s, you’re missing so much of what church is supposed to be.

If you’re intentionally being. You need generate not multi-generational like you’re, you’re, you’re intentionally being mano generational. I mean, I think that’s a huge mistake and here’s the thing it’s, it’s not just one generation that does that. Right. We have older churches that have kind of chosen to be a mano generational and that they only [00:04:00] cater.

I know of churches that have expressed that, that they’ve said all these other churches are run off of the old people. We’re going to be the church for old people. Now that does not lead to a long and prosperous future. it may work out well for a little while and maybe every one of those leave you in their will and you can fund this thing for, but like, it’s just not a long and in kingdom minded, prosperous future.

But I think we see the same mistake made by church planters sometimes, or even re planters that tell people over 60 to stay away for two years.

Bob Bickford: Yeah. Well, I was part of a nationally known church planting now. a church that was part of that. And one of the things they used to always say when they got together was we need more people with gray hair.

Right. And so, you know, how an older church would, mano generational older church when the young person shows up, like they get swarmed, same thing with these church plants. They were all young people and they’re all trying to figure out life. And they needed some grandparents. They needed some people with life experience and gray hair.

So I [00:05:00] think that. Really highlights. The biblical pattern for a church is multi generational. So let’s say you’re in a mano generational older church, which really was the heartbeat of the question. So you shared some thoughts with them about how does the church become younger? Meaning not, not to flip its emphasis to be only younger.

Right. But how to be intergenerational. And what are the steps that a replenisher can take church can take that like mano generational in the older section

JimBo Stewart: of the livestream. So I think primarily just in my observation, there three bad approaches. I want to cover those first and then we’ll get to the biblical approach.

Or at least what I believe is the biblical approach. So bad approach. Number one, you sent her all preferential decisions in the church culture on one generation, which was kind, just talked about you, you, you take whether intentional or subconscious you take a mano generational approach. Yeah.

Bob Bickford: So like Wednesday night supper, salmon cakes, and boiled cabbage.[00:06:00]

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, that’d be rough. that’s a motto generation. It’s mano generational. Right? So, so we’ve talked about how you can do that. If you’re just focused on young people and you to all the old people to go away, or if you just focus on or regeneration bad approach, number two, you hire a new young pastor and you place the expectation of reaching young people.

Solely on his

Bob Bickford: shoulders, because that’s the secret to turning a church around you, new, younger pastor,

JimBo Stewart: right? It sure seems that’s what a lot of people think the problem is. They hire this young guy and then they don’t let him change anything. They kill him and he wants to get out of ministry and then everything he tries to change.

They say, no, And so that’s a bad approach, bad approach. Number three, create segmented programming where everyone get what’s, what’s what they want. And no one has to sacrifice their generational

Bob Bickford: preferences. I mean, that just leads to. The, the majority of the folks, and here’s what I’ve heard. We’re the older folks and we pay the bills around here.

So this is the way it’s going

JimBo Stewart: to go. Oh yeah. That’s [00:07:00] that’s they pull the purse strings and they demand that will, so you gotta let us do what we want. We’ll let look. That’s why we create the youth building across the parking lot so they can turn their music up as loud as they want. And they can do their thing and we don’t have to have anything to do with them, but come Sunday morning, because here’s part of, there’s several reasons why this approach doesn’t work.

One of them is at some point we’re all in the same room. Hopefully now there are some churches that don’t do that. There are some churches that, I mean, so segment this, that like youth have their own Sunday morning church kids have their own Sunday morning. Senior adults have their own service and then there’s the blended service and nobody has to give up anything.

Yeah. Well, here’s the problem. That’s not how Christianity works. Yeah. Right. It’s this is not the goal. Here is not. How to most efficiently make sure no one has to die to self.

Bob Bickford: I love that. That’s what you

JimBo Stewart: need a t-shirt with that. That’s not the goal. The gospel calls us to doubt [00:08:00]ourselves to put the interest of others above ourselves, to outdo one another in showing honor, to, to love each other with all humility, to make every effort to maintain the unity of the guy.

I mean, it’s, you could quote scripture for days on this. Like I thought you were

Bob Bickford: going to write.

JimBo Stewart: this is a big deal. This is a big deal in the Bible that we are unified in Christ. And so in the role that we have with north American mission board, We get to learn from a lot of guys who lead your serialization all across the country.

And so I was talking about that with a pastor friend of mine the other day. And he said, cause he was asking me how I love my role. And I said, that’s one of the reasons I like it because I’m really getting to dive deep into church revitalization, to learn from a lot of different people. And he said, what are the patterns?

What do you see? And I said, I’m going to tell you, man, I really think. This motto, generational thing is one of the major contributing factors to declining churches. And so he asked me, what do you think the solution to that is? And I said, I really think it’s [00:09:00] multi-generational discipleship relationship and here, but I want to be really careful.

That you don’t hear me say what I’m not saying. I am not saying. so after my talk today, one of the pastors came to me, the Korean pastors came to me and said, so we have age groups, small groups, should we not do that? Should we have multi-generational small groups? And I said, it doesn’t really matter.

You can do multi-generational small groups. You can do age groups, small groups. Whatever’s gonna work for you in that, but small groups by themselves are not discipleship. So I’m not, I’m not even specifically talking programming. When I say this, I’m more talking about being in each other’s lives. Right.

And so the passage, I kind of take this bit. So I would say the biblical approach. In my opinion is we need to increase affection for each other and understanding of each other through generational multi-generational discipleship building. So empathy is built through [00:10:00] proximity. And I think this is one of the issues between racial tension.

I think this is one of the issues and all sorts of cultural tension is we create this us versus them. And mentality. And so we treat people as a collective group of people rather than an individual, because we don’t really know them that well. And so it’s easy to get frustrated at whoever them is. And if, if them as younger people and we don’t spend any time truly investing in them, we’re not going to have affection for them.

Bob Bickford: Yeah. When we third-party somebody, when we use the word day party, somebody like that, when we use those words, it puts a barrier in between us that for. that welcomes bias and precludes, any interaction that would overcome the knowledge of on, okay. So we doing politics, we do it in generation.

We do it in ethnic groups and all those sorts of things. And one of the mace, one of my favorite pictures from our replant was, Dottie and I’ve talked about her before Dottie was, is now she’s I guess, 96 and, little [00:11:00] Anna grace at the time was probably, maybe. And there’s a picture of them worshiping together.

And Dottie has her arm on integration, shelter, and little Anna grace has got her arm around Dottie’s back and they’re just, they’re singing together. They’re worshiping together. And her mom put that on Facebook and said, this is why I love my church. Right. And so I think that’s the thing that we miss when we third-party somebody.

Now, can we just sit on? We need to honestly say there are cranky people in the church of all ages, right? And there are hard to get along with people. in all age groups, there are EGR, extra grace required for spirits

JimBo Stewart: are quite, and

Bob Bickford: so let’s not assign that does not assign. All the difficulty to one generation, either young or old, but let’s realize that if we sit down and actually get to hear fate stories and you know, a couple episodes back, Johnny Rambo is talking about listening to Jesus stores.

How’d you meet Jesus, sit down and do that intergeneration. I think what will [00:12:00] happen is there’ll be a worm. There’ll be, a greatly warmed affection for people to cross generational lines. Yeah.

JimBo Stewart: And that’s the key man. And so I see it in first Thessalonians chapter two, you started start at verse three.

For our expectation didn’t come from error or impurity or an intent to deceive instead, just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. So we speak not to please people, but rather God who examines our hearts. So a couple of points out of this, I would say is one. I remember that we have been entrusted by God with the gospel and it is imperative.

That we pass it on to the next generation, but also that we examine our hearts. And what is our motivation? Because I think sometimes when older churches say we need young people, it’s sometimes it’s not that they care about younger people or know that they don’t care, but it’s more, the motivation is more, my church is going to die.

And so I need younger people. So this church can continue to live.[00:13:00] But I, don’t want to change anything about the way we do things. right. I just need you to come. And I see this, even in multicultural situations, when people go, you know, yeah. I understand that most people around here are not the same ethnicity or culture or socioeconomic status as me and the way that we’ve done things, but they’re all welcome here.

As long as they worship, like we do, as long as they do things the way we, I mean, it’s not that I have a problem with them being here. Our problem with them changing. Any of my preferences and that’s not a biblical approach. And so we have to examine our hearts. I mean, Psalm 1 45 says one generation would declare your works to the next, right.

We is our job to proclaim the gospel and carry it on to others. So we have to be careful not to value our personal preferences over the purpose that God has given us. It continue in first Thessalonians, it says. In verses seven and eight, it says, although we could have been a burden as Christ apostle. So he’s saying we were Christ possible.

Could’ve been asking you for [00:14:00] money. We could have, we could have burdened you with what we need. We could have done that, but instead we were gentle among you. Now I didn’t go into this part in my talk, but that really struck me. Like he’s saying as a possible is because of my office, because of what my leadership in the church, I could be a burden to you.

But I chose to be gentle and care for you. And I think if the older, the older generation model generational church, that’s saying, how do we reach younger people? I think read that passage could be a burden to you, but instead of want to be gentle, you keep reading. It says, as a nurse nurtures her own children, we cared so much for you that we were pleased to share with you.

Not only the gospel of God. But also our own lives because you had become dear to us. Yeah,

Bob Bickford: I totally agree. When I was having a conversation yesterday about worship and the difficulties across generations and in worship. And, one of the things I used to say as youth pastor, so I, uh, pastor our youth, youth pastor at a church.

That was a real formal pipe organ and handbells and choir robes, you know, kind of a [00:15:00]church. And so we, our youth ministry was growing. It was right during passion and like, you know, passion music, this was exploding. So our kids, what’s what we are great college band. It was awesome. And we did all the songs.

They would not walk across the street and go to church cause they didn’t like it. They were like, we’re not doing, I was trying to explain this to our, our staff team. And I was saying, okay, You know, guys there, there really it’s all the music is mano generational here. And the way you speak about our music is negative.

Right. And I remember that the youth of the worship leader said, well, we’re going to do sacred music here. Right. As if the passion music was of a different lower class. And I just said, you know, here’s what I think. Everybody who’s in the older generations, they’ve been in church for decades. They’d had worship music, how they’ve wanted it for ever.

And these young kids haven’t could we at least find some way where we could do something to honor both [00:16:00] generations, right. And I think it’s not only music, but it’s, you know, the style, it’s the way to make decisions. It’s the, you know, the decor it’s, you know, all sorts of things. If the older generations really, and I think where your talk was the lodging board for your tacos, how does an older generation person need to respond to a younger generation?

And then the passage you talked about is you, you draw them near to you and you give them what will give them life and help them mature and grow. Right. So I think if our older generations can figure that out and our younger generations can be patient and respond to that and realize that that we don’t have to be at war with one another, we might see some good

JimBo Stewart: progress.

There’s a guy at the replant that I pastored named. And buddy was a charter member of the church. He was a little kid when they planted the church 60 something years ago and his family didn’t go to church, but they would come pick him up on the van and he would come and he, went into the [00:17:00] military.

Did service traveled a little bit for business, but then when he moved back to Jacksonville, he came back to that church and buddy to this day, It’s one of the most encouraging. I mean, he would regularly take me to breakfast, to lunch, to coffee. He, he knew that I liked like a pour over coffee and not just, you know, diner, coffee.

And so he said, man, I want to try it. He, he came to me and said, I want to go to one of your coffee shops and I want to try your. And I’ve got a picture that I look at every once in a while. It makes me so happy. It’s me and buddy sitting at vagabond coffee and Murray hill and Jacksonville, where we both got poor overs and he loved it.

But here’s the deal because buddy always invested in me like that when I did fall short on leadership, which happens from time to time he had my ear and he could say it to me in a loving way. He would say, Hey, pat, You’re doing such a great job. There’s some things I think you need to consider. how does maybe harder for some of us than you think it [00:18:00] is, and he would lovingly and gently.

I mean, I can’t tell you how much buddy still means to me because he lived out this, that he cared so much for me, that he was pleased not to just hear the gospel with me, but his life. And that discipled me that helped me grow. Look, I think we, as a whole, another podcast of what is discipleship, I think there is programmatic discipleship, and I think that’s a good and benefit.

We need to be systematic in, in some of our approaches so that we know we’re teaching the right things. But I think another part of discipleship literally is just sharing life is just having coffee, having lunch, having dinner. Hanging out, spending time, going to the store together, doing those things. And what happens is, as we build that proximity and empathy for each other, it changes the way we make decisions.

It changes the way we view things and it moves us from this. Multi-generational generational differences can feel like a competition. It feels we third-party each other. [00:19:00] I like that phrasing. We third-party each other. It becomes us versus them. And now when we’re making decisions, we come in on the, on the defense rather than on how do we love each other, honor each other and serve the purpose of the question doesn’t become.

Hey, what serves the purpose? God has given this church in this moment best, but the question becomes. How do I not lose this battle on, I retain what I want? How do I retain? Or how do I get what I want? We’re going to battle. I don’t want to lose what I love so much. and I think it let listen, I’m not talking about, I don’t, I don’t care what your music is or what.

It’s the heart posture and that that’s probably going to lead to changes in how you do music, and it’s probably gonna lead to changes in how you make decisions. But I think it has to start with what we see in first Thessalonians. It has to start with, I care so much about you that I not only share the gospel with you, but my life.

And as you get to know me and I get to know you. Now instead of a third [00:20:00] party, when I make a decision that is going to be hard for you, your face comes in my brain and I think. How’s that going to go for Bob and

Bob Bickford: everybody’s thinking about everybody else at that point, right. And they’ll get work. So the young people are thinking about how’s this about the older people and the older people think how’s this affect the younger people.

So we get somewhere into a decision that may not be a fit every one’s preference, but has beneficial for all. And I think that’s the, the, the, we were such a westernized, individualistic culture that. We fight for our preferences and we don’t collaboratively say what’s beneficial. So we see this, we see this in politics.

We see this in churches that battle with decisions and those sorts of things. So I love that the explanations that you’ve given there that really talk about the reason why we move towards one another is so that we are more easily able to submit to one another’s needs out of.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I mean, that’s not what it talks about in Ephesians, right?

The ideas submit one to another and that’s what it look when [00:21:00] Jesus said in John 13, that the world will know you’re my disciples by how you love each other. Like, this is the kind of stuff he’s talking about. He was telling the truth like this. This is that, look, he didn’t say they’ll know you’re my disciples because you go to church and you tie in.

No. He said, by the way, you love each other. And so you gotta think, he’s not saying like, oh, it’s just like, Hey man, I love you. It’s demonstrated love through sacrificial action and in a way that the world sees that and goes, well, this doesn’t make any sense. why are they doing that? I remember, The first time it happened actually several times, some younger, like early twenties, young ladies came and said, Hey, are you okay if we go to the senior ladies Bible study group, instead of the young adults, I was like, well, yeah.

I was like, well, why, why do you want to do that? I was for, I just wanted to hear their reason. And they said, we just feel like we have a lot to learn from them. And so these young ladies started attending. The senior ladies. And [00:22:00] then out of that, they, they start to set up these little tea parties where they would assign a senior adult lady to a younger lady or a youth girl, and they would have these tables.

And like, it was amazing just to see this multi-generational relationship stuff happened around these little tea parties that they had. And this, this wasn’t just a women’s event just to have a women’s event. It was trying to create this first Thessalonians. I care for you so much. So much, don’t just share the gospel with you.

I don’t just go to the same church as you. I don’t just believe in the same Jesus as you, but I care right? You so much now letting you into my life and I’m getting into yours. And now, because of that care, I’m going to sacrificially serve you and you’re going to sacrificially serve me. And we’re going to get, we’re going to get away from this competition.

Third party Monday.

Bob Bickford: so good. I love what you’re you’re driving at. And I think if churches can find ways to do that, it, would be so beneficial for them as they look towards their feature of creating [00:23:00] a multi-generational ministry.