JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you’re ready for the next episode. We, uh, are recording a few weeks in advance to give our blog writers an opportunity to be able to have time to, to write the blogs, but, this is our first opportunity since the battle of the Boot, LSU versus Arkansas, to, to let the bootcamp world know on the podcast.

Bob did make good on the annual wager that we. I tried to get Bob to wear the pajama top in the airport, but I gave it to him in the restaurant where we had lunch at the airport and he would not wear it there, but he did wear it at the house. And we have a good picture on social media and we’ll make sure it’s in the show notes as well for you.

Bob Bickford: Yeah, I’m glad we were able to document that and, I think the, the restaurant I was already. About to eat my food when you blitz in from being late, for some reason. and so I just wanted to let the record show we, we were sitting down and already eating and, at least I was about to eat. And then you handed me the, the t the pajama top in a bag.

[00:01:00] So, and then we had to scoot to get to our next flight. So that’s, you know, our travels Jimbo, we’ve been all over the. Recently and, we’re about to wrap up our final travels. I think in, interestingly enough, you and I have had several trips in, partnership. We’ve been doing some things together, which has been fun and, so it’s always good to connect and sometimes you never know who you’re gonna meet in the airport.

And I met Jimbo with Pajama Top. So there you

go.

JimBo Stewart: There we. Hey, speaking of our blog writers and making things, uh, as easy as we can for them, we have been so blessed and excited to have, a regular blog going on with the podcast, and we just finished our four part series written by Bobby B Bob Bickford on the Four Stages of Replanting and one of our illustrious blog writers, Caleb Duncan, uh, is.

Associational, missional strategist, director of Missions, whatever title that, that you, just depends on who you’re asking, what his title is, in the Panhandle of Florida. He had a good suggestion for a follow up, Bob, and so Caleb, welcome to the podcast

Caleb Duncan: Thank you [00:02:00] for having me. I’m honored to be here and yeah, in the very rural area of Florida, I go by lots of different names, . So, associational admission strategist is not one that a lot of people, uh, know around here. Maybe a couple, but. Last time I got up to preach at one of our small churches, I was introduced as the, director missionary of associational missions.

So that’s, that was a brand new one. I liked it.

Right.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I think I’ve heard area missionary too. I’ve heard

Caleb Duncan: yeah. Area missionary. Yeah, there’s a lot of different names. I think

Bob Bickford: Does somebody ever, has somebody ever just put it all together and just called you the dome or the doma? Anybody’s ever said that when they introduce

Caleb Duncan: not that yet, but I’m sure it’s coming. A lot of them have come out of the blue,

JimBo Stewart: So older Doms will, will go by dome and then sometimes they’ll make the joke that Dom stands for dumb old man. I’ve heard that from

Caleb Duncan: I have heard that as well. so that, that is one that I have heard. I think. I think mostly though, it’s hard for people to figure out with me because I’m like, [00:03:00] 28 years old now. And whenever people look at me, they’re like, you’re not the kind of dom that I guess that I know from back home. Like, you don’t do the same thing that they do, do you?

And I’m like, well, you know, what did they do? So,

Bob Bickford: Yeah,

Caleb Duncan: so there’s, there’s a, you know, when people look at me, they’re like, I don’t, you’re not a dom, because I think there’s that. That idea that Doms are kind of, you know, retired pastors who are kind of, you know, offering advice and counsel to, you know, churches in a variety of situations.

And I’m just not that guide. So , it’s been, it’s been a little bit weird, but it’s been a joy, absolutely a joy.

Bob Bickford: Man, we love our ams or doms, which whatever term they’re going by. Cuz you guys play such an important role in helping churches be strategic about their ministry and their context. And so, man, it’s awesome and, and you might be one of the youngest doms that we have across North America. so man, I’m just glad you’re doing what you.

Caleb Duncan: Well, in the interview process, it was funny, you know, they wanted to [00:04:00]know, you know, what would I be doing, to, to help serve the churches. And they wanted to hear kind of my vision for things. And I told them, I’m not the one that can sit down with you and talk about. You know, finances or go through conflict resolution, those are things that I have to learn.

And I said, but you know, I can be a friend, I can be a prayer partner and I can encourage you in the great commission. You know, those are the three things that I think are important for me to, to try to do. So, as a young guy in, in kind of what we’re talking about in the podcast today, I feel like I’m much on the, the receiving end of, um, leadership development from our pastors, and I really enjoy that.

So,

Bob Bickford: Awesome.

JimBo Stewart: so speaking of why we have you on the podcast today, you’ve brought a great addition to Bob’s four stages of replanting that we just finished harvesting. talk to us a little bit about what you’re thinking when you talk about this fifth stage of harvesting.

Caleb Duncan: Yeah. So I would say after we’re focused on, the growing stage where we’re, we’re seeing, seeing a lot of spiritual growth, you know, in the congregation, in, in different avenues, [00:05:00] what we really need to be doing after that is trying to identify leaders out of that congregation and seek to train them, and utilize them as soon as we can, and, The definition, I think that, kind of fits what harvesting might be is, is the process of identifying, training and utilizing leaders from your congregation to assist and carry on the work of the ministry.

So as spiritual growth occurs, you know, leaders are, they’re actively engaged in trying to intentionally disciple and raise up new leaders from out of the congregation.

Bob Bickford: It’s such a great, I, thought there in terms of, you know, harvesting typically in. Experience has always just been the harvest of souls, right? The harvest of people coming to, to know Christ, which is, which is part of the harvest. Right? But you, you particularly thought about like harvesting leaders from the congregation to come up and, and to continue the missional work.

So as you think through that, biblically, you, you have suggested a couple of ideas where you, you think through leaders, You know, from a [00:06:00] biblical perspective that came up through the church and now are, involved and engaged in the ministry. Can you walk us through a couple of those, those scenarios where you see leaders?

Cuz that’s the number one thing I hear pastors talking about is, um, not number one necessary, but it’s in the top five man. We just gotta have more leaders. Like I just gotta have more leaders. So walk us through some of your thoughts there in terms of harvesting leaders for the work of mission.

Caleb Duncan: Yeah, so I think that, in the example that you use Bob with Paul and Pauls in First Corinthians three that are mentioned by, you know, their planting and their. Apollos is watering and we talked about that in stage three and a little bit in stage four, two. and then, you know, you pulled out Acts chapter 18 verses 24 through 28, where we see Apollos doing the work of ministry.

And I think that in that story is a great example of what, identifying and training a leader looks like because, and we think about Apollo. Or really think of him as a, as a natural leader. You know, the scriptures say that he was, he was competent in the scripture. So he spoke and he taught with accuracy.

it [00:07:00] also says there in verse 25 and 26 that he was, you know, fervent in spirit. So Apollos was, you know, speaking boldly about the things of God. And then verse 27 talks about how he was just greatly useful to the ministry. And so, what happens with Apollo though is that, he knows the scriptures, but he doesn’t know them to their full completion, right?

He, he knows sections of them. He knows the baptism of John. And so he’s talking about sin and repentance and trying to encourage people to turn from their sin, but he’s missing something. then we see this picture of Priscilla and Equi. Who actually. they see and they recognize what a Apollo is doing, and they identify him as a leader and then they pull him aside and they’re teaching him more accurately the, the way of the Lord, the things of God.

And then they, they, they send a Apollo back out to continue the work of ministry. So I think that if we were using kind of the example that you’ve used of Paul and Apollos, I think Apollos would be a great example of a leader who has developed, but I think even further, we think [00:08:00] about the life of Jesus, and Jesus pulled aside 12 disciples to follow him.

He was gonna make them fishers of men. He spent three years, every moment with these disciples and we kind of see this picture of Jesus’ ministry, but, What Jesus does is he pulls out three leaders out of those 12 disciples. He brings out Peter and James and John, and we see these different pictures, especially in the Book of Mark, but really in all over the gospels where Jesus pulls them aside so that they can watch him do the work of ministry.

So there’s the healing of Peter’s mother-in-law and the healing of J’s daughter, where, the Bible says that Jesus took Peter, James and John with him so that they could see the work of ministry unfold. And then, in the amount of transfiguration, they’re, able to see some of the things that does that the rest of the disciples are not able to see.

So Jesus pulls them aside to the mount on the amount of transfiguration. And then lastly, there’s this picture of the garden of Yosemite. All the disciples are with Jesus in the garden, [00:09:00] but when Jesus goes to pray, he pulls those three disciples with him and they can watch. So what I’m thinking of is, Yes, Jesus discipled.

I pour into all the disciples, but he especially did so with Peter, James, and John. just to kind of bring that to a conclusion, I think that it’s clear, you know the reason why and when you open the book of Acts, the only three. Of the original 12 disciples that are mentioned by name and that are doing the work of ministry and our leaders in the early church are Peter, James and John.

And so Jesus sought to do that. you know, how much more so to we, you know, really seek to identify the leaders to carry on the work of ministry after we’re gone.

JimBo Stewart: Such a good word, man. I, I love how well you have laid that out biblically. one of the greatest joys I have, I think in ministries when I have the opportunity to develop leaders and, I struggled at first because, I would develop leaders in my little church and then they would get, pulled from a larger church because, I couldn’t pay ’em.

And, at, at, at first, that really bothered me. But then I realized, man, what a, what a gift that I get [00:10:00] to be a part of their story. And I get to be a part of seeing that happen. And I think one of the. Mistakes. I see smaller churches like Replants make sometimes is we think, oh, we gotta wait till we’re big enough to develop leaders.

We, you know, to focus on leadership development. And, man, this, ties to so much of what we talk about here on the podcast about the importance of. Shared leadership in that, the CEO model of pastor is not biblical and it doesn’t work. and so as a pastor man, one of the things you have to be working on is, is developing leaders.

I mean, it’s Ephesians for, you know, 11 equipping the Saints to do the work of ministry in, And so

I’m just grateful for this, addition to the four stages of replanting for what it brings to us. What are some practical ways that we could identify, as we think about this.

Is it guys listening to this? If he wants to start identifying developing leaders, knowing that a pastor has a responsibility to make disciples, he has a pa, a responsibility to shepherd. He has a responsibility to, engage the community and he has the responsibility to develop leaders. how do you [00:11:00]identify leaders?

Caleb Duncan: I think that one of the, the first ways that we can do that is that while we’re, while we’re doing and starting the work of ministry in our churches, we’re always keeping our eyes open, but we want to see and recognize. who are the people who, it seems like the church members gravitate around who go, they go to them for questions.

they look to them for, for answers on different issues going on in the church. there’s a reason why church members gravitate towards that. And I will say too, a leader is not always an extrovert. It’s not always a person who just speaks the.

JimBo Stewart: Good.

Caleb Duncan: There’s a guy who’s involved in my connect group at church right now, and he’s, he’s very, very quiet, but I really respect him and brought him onto our church development team.

And he’s also another younger guy, but he’s an engineer here in our community and he’s on our church development team at the association. And, We call, we all call him Young Richie cuz his dad’s name is Richard as well. But he, um, we’ll go and sit in on a meeting with the church [00:12:00] and talk about, different issues that we’re seeing and some options that they can do to replant.

And he’s the quietest one in the room, but when it’s his turn to speak he always says something profound and super observe it that nobody else thought of. And I’ve noticed that a lot of people when they start think. You know, financial questions, they’ll start going to him. I love that. You know, so we keep our eyes open to see, you know, new leaders and see which ones kind of emerge out of that, congregation that we can pull aside and begin to intentionally spend time with.

And that’s the second thing I think, you know, we spend time personally with those individual. We, um, take every moment that we can to bring them, alongside of us and to see the way that we do ministry. I think another thing is that we give them opportunities to, to model the example that we’re setting.

So if I’m, doing some kind of ministry work, especially if you’re a replant, Pastor or rev or revitalization pastor, and you’re working inside of a church and you’re going out into the community to knock on doors and pray for people and get to know your community. You take [00:13:00] those leaders along with you and you let them see the way that you interact with other people.

and I think lastly, you know, just, and Bob, you, you, if you wanted to, add on to this, I, I think that, you know, you just, you delegate responsibility to. With oversight and you just allow them to, carry on some work and then you watch and give correction if needed. I think those are just some practical ways to identify and develop people.

Bob Bickford: Man, I love that list. I especially love how you describe young Richie. And here’s an observation, Jimbo in the South. You can get a nickname that has nothing to do with you actually. Right. Like Young Richie’s, probably not young, but they call him Young Richie cuz he is Richie Junior

JimBo Stewart: Well and mean. He was, he was probably, he, like he was young when they met him 25

years ago

and

Caleb Duncan: Well, well, he’s young right now, but, but I’ve, I’ve, I’ve said young Richie to so many people that I feel like, uh, that name’s gonna carry on. So,

Bob Bickford: yep. What I love about the way you describe him is, you have seen him in several different situations exhibit the character [00:14:00] and wisdom that qualify him as a competent leader. And I think one of the things that’s so important, For re planters and, and leaders ams As anyone is watching somebody, and I think you said this, you get, you have to watch them over time, right.

To understand who they are and what they’re about. and in some replants I’ve seen where, where I’ve walked in, everybody goes to a response to a particular individual who’s a leader, but they might not be a leader that has a lot of charact. , but they’re a controlling leader or they’re an influential leader, and so that’s one of the things I, I think is so important Is just looking at the lay of the land, who’s volunteering, who’s leading and choosing the leaders that demonstrate Christlike character and the fruit of the spirit who are there. And there are some there, but they, like you said, they may not be an extrovert. Most of us, I think Jimbo, most of our team is an extrovert and surprisingly, mark Clifton, who’s the leader of the replant team, he is not an extrover.

He’s an introvert and people don’t understand that, but when he gets on the stage, man, the lights go on. And he’s like this [00:15:00] incredible

dynamic speaker, but off the stage, man, he is like, give him a chair in a corner or a private room where he just has to go and recharge. So I love the fact that, you’ve just highlighted the fact that great leaders don’t have to be extrover.

and, and we need all kinds of personalities and types that to help lead the church. One thing I would say is, as you’re thinking about the harvest and you’re thinking about leaders, And this may be a little counterintuitive, but I would wait to give leadership responsibility to someone until I have disagreed with them about something.

Because sometimes what’ll happen is, is I can go for months, maybe even years. Being on the same page with a really dynamic leader who could be an extrovert or could be an introvert. But if we have a disagreement and we can’t handle that disagreement and resolve and move forward, then what’s happened is, is that I’ve uncovered something that may be months and years later is gonna be more detrimental.

So, you know, I, I think Jesus was always testing his disciples and was always giving them responsibility in. [00:16:00] Obligations and then watching to see how they would do, you know, James and John wanted to call, call fire down on people. When people didn’t respond the way they, Peter was always putting his foot in his mouth.

Judith was like ciphering. Judas was ciphering off the cash over in the corner. You know, Thomas, you know, who just, I mean, think about the, think about the team that he put together, and most of us probably wouldn’t ever looked at ’em or hired those guys, right? But Jesus brings ’em together and then the scriptures give us the syndication.

And here’s one thing I would say. Leaders aren’t perfect, right? and so, man, we keep that in mind as you’re, as you’re developing a leadership team out of the harvest of, of what God brings to you. Just remember that, that leaders are not perfect and they’re gonna make mistakes. And so Grant Grace and then move towards them with, with, gentle biblical instruction in e.

Caleb Duncan: I think that’s a very good insight as definitely going in the blog, by the way. So

Bob Bickford: Yeah. I hope so.

Caleb Duncan: and, and I, I would say too, you know, I, I’ve been in, I’ve been in relationships before where, Some men of [00:17:00] God have really, I mean, really poured their life and soul into me, and I would say on the discipleship end of things, teaching me how to follow Christ well. What’s going on right now is, As a young AMS leader, I’m surrounded by, I mean, we have probably the smallest Baptist Association in the state of Florida, right?

We have 15 churches. There might be one or two smaller than that, but we have, we have it small, so I’ve got 15 pastors and they’re some of the best pastors in the panhandle, and they pour their life and soul to me and are trying to develop me as a leader. And I recognize that and see that, and. You know, I’m like, I’m trying to be the one to, you know, encourage them and pray for them and be with them.

But really, leadership works both ways because even as you seek to develop leaders, you learn a lot about yourself in the process. And I recognize my pastor right now at, at first chip leader, his name is Mike, or, and he is just pouring into me. he, it’s a different type of disciple. It is not just teaching me how to follow Christ, but he’s trying to develop me as a leader.

And so, you know, I [00:18:00] recognize some of those things and, see the influence of it in my own life. And I get convicted about ways that I’m leading and need to learn how to lead better. So, I feel very much on the receiving end of that, that leadership development.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I think one of the important things to keep in mind in leadership development is, We’re not doing this ultimately in order to use people to accomplish our to-do list. if you go into leadership development with the mindset of, oh, this is gonna help me get so much more done, then you’re probably gonna miss the gold of what leadership development is really about.

It’s about developing leaders, which sounds obvious because that’s what we just said, but we easily fall into the trap of what I call delegate and. Where once they show any amount of competency, we just go, okay, here, do these 10 things. And then we just, that’s, we just assign them to 10 things and walk away.

And we think that that’s leadership development. That’s not leadership development. That’s, I mean, if, if you need somebody to help you do [00:19:00] things, then call it what it is and you. Getting things done, and there’s nothing wrong with that. and that can be incorporated into leadership development. But if we get confused and we just assume that that’s what leadership development is, is the, or even the purpose of leadership development is just to get more things done, then we’ll get really frustrated when things aren’t done right.

We’ll get really frustrated when they require more attention to Leadership Development will cost you time. It will cost you resources. this is. Free volunteer labor. This is, this is a, an opportunity to invest into somebody, and I think you just have to keep that in mind. Or else you might get impatient and real.

You just gotta realize that different people are in different stages. I would call you back to an episode we did with Bob Bumgarner a while back called Situational Leadership.

Caleb Duncan: Mm-hmm.

JimBo Stewart: Which Situational leadership. Situational leadership talks about developing leaders and, and understanding kind of what stage of development they’re in and how each stage requires a little bit different, levels of attention [00:20:00] or encouragement or resourcing.

and knowing that your goal is not to produce, task being done, your goal is to develop a leader. And just keeping that in mind, I think it’s really, I.

Caleb Duncan: That’s great.

Bob Bickford: I think one thing too, Jimbo to keep in mind is you’re developing leaders. It’s, we there, there’s a lot of temptation to find the leadership class or development process that’s more of a static. Like it’s okay, do these five lessons and do these things. Now there’s, there’s a lot of value in that because, There are a lot of us that would benefit from, okay, what are, how are we going to develop leaders?

What are the things we need to do? And so there’s competencies and qualifications and characteristics and all those things. So we need outside individuals. But I think the, the other thing that we’re gonna have to, to look at is every leader that’s developed develops at a different pace. And they also have different, areas of their life that need to.

Specifically addressed in terms of just their own personal development. Like you can train ’em in a skill, but there may be some character issues or there may be some family of origin issues, there may be some [00:21:00] perspective and personality issues, right? So if you’ve got a, enthusiastic. Leader who’s like every meeting, this is gonna be the best and the greatest and the most awesomeness thing.

Right? Well then people get tired from that. Like, cuz everything is awesome. Nothing is awesome. And then if you’ve got the EOR melancholy type personality, who’s a leader, you know, they, they may be motivated by negative. Like, look how bad this thing is. We’ve gotta work hard to make it better. Right? And so that’s what they, so you’ve gotta help leaders think about those kinds of things as well as the.

Biblical competencies and the organizational competencies and those sorts of things. And so I think as much as it can be standardized, it’s also has to be customized and thinking of the gospel metaphor, you know, when Jesus had gospel conversations with different individuals, he started where they were. and had an, understanding of their background. So you think of the woman of the well, right. Where did, where did you start with her? I think of Nicodemus. Where did he start with Nicodemus? you know, all sorts of things in, in Christ’s life show us that Jesus met [00:22:00] people where they were not so that they could stay where they are, but so that they could be transformed by who he was.

And I think that’s really important part of leadership development and, helps us think through this harvest idea as well.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, character matters a lot more than competency

and we can’t, we can’t miss that. don’t be distracted by the guy. I love that you talked about the extroverted versus introvert. Don’t be distracted by the guy who. Is a really good public speaker, but it’s just kind of a jerk. don’t, don’t waste your time on that guy.

I mean, I, look man, I, I’ve gotten to the point in my life where like if I have that guy and he wants me to develop him, I’m gonna do everything I can to humble him, because that’s what he needs.

That’s, I mean, it’s. and, I know I know a lot about it because, I was that guy and, some people had to humble me.

Caleb Duncan: you know, when I, think about, this topic and. I know that, if you’re involved in a replant or a revitalization, it’s sometimes it’s hard to look around and try to identify leaders, especially in a, you know, if there’s a congregation that has seven or eight people left, But I think that, you know, [00:23:00] before a church goes outside of their congregation to hire someone and bring somebody in to be an extra pastor or an extra leader, I still think that it’s a priority that we look inside first and try to develop those leaders from within.

because you’ve built trust with the congregation. I think that, you know, when you think about, leaders inside of the congregation, sometimes that could be hard to identify. So I would. still try to identify a few leaders, at least if they are not going to be, you know, a next pastor or ministry leader, they can, they can at least be developed into some other kind of leadership role.

but we have to be doing that because the point is, you know, what happens if you fall ill or you die, or you move on to another assignment that God’s called you. What happens if, you know, uh, your associational leader is gone and what happens to the church? Who’s involved in a replant if you’ve not developed any leaders to follow up in your place?

And I think that that’s a. Something that we just need to [00:24:00] consider. Like we, we have to be able to put someone in our places for when we leave. because the goal really is, I mean, we just as disciples are making disciples, like leaders should be developing leaders. and if we don’t do that, we’re missing out on the blessing of.

I think not just the blessing of obeying the Lord, but the blessing of, seeing the joy of a multiplying congregation, and seeing one that gets on fire for the Lord and is following the leadership of those who have been developed in, in a godly way.

JimBo Stewart: man, this is great, Bob. do you give your stamp of approval to officially add this as a next stage of replanting?

Bob Bickford: Absolutely. Stamp of approval Grant.

Caleb Duncan: That’s awesome.

JimBo Stewart: Absolutely. Hey Caleb, thanks for being on with us today. Thanks for, adding a fifth. Of replanting and thanks for being an awesome volunteer blog writer,

Caleb Duncan: I’m still waiting on my hat by the way,

Bob Bickford: Oh, dude, we gotta get it. We’ll get you one.

Caleb Duncan: Nah, I enjoy it. Thank you guys so much.