JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Here we are back at the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you’re ready for the next episode. It is the week of am I a re planter in Louisville, Kentucky. Is that the right way to say it? Louisville

Bob Bickford: most people, Yeah,

Brian Croft: There’s eight ways to say it, but I think you’re correct, Jimbo.

Bob Bickford: if you’re from there, don’t you say Louisville,

Brian Croft: Yeah. It just depends on the person really. It, it varies. There’s a T-shirt that shows the eight ways you can say it actually. So,

Bob Bickford: Does anyone say

Brian Croft: No one.

JimBo Stewart: No

one.

Brian Croft: No one. I don’t even think that’s even on the shirt as an option. So,

JimBo Stewart: So this week we’ll be in Louisville, Kentucky, doing the Mire Planter with our good friend, Brian Croft, who we’ve gotten to develop a great friendship with over, over the years doing replant revitalization work together. Brian, welcome back to the Replant Bootcamp.

Brian Croft: Great to be back with you guys. Thank you.

JimBo Stewart: Man, I, I’m excited to have you on here today and talk about one of my favorite topics, just [00:01:00] friendships, I love hanging out with people. I’ve gotten do some fun stuff with you. You came down to Jacksonville and we, uh, went to a hockey game as a family. It was actually my first, major, It’s not even major, but like the most major hockey game I’ve ever been to.

The first hockey game I went to was in Alaska, and it was like in a high school gym basically. but this was like at the Veterans Memorial Arena, the Jacksonville Iceman.

Brian Croft: Yes, that was a good time. And by the way, when, you know, when, when two of my good friends ask me to come on their podcast to talk about friendship, I’m not sure how you say no to that. So I’m here, you know, here I am. You know, I’m glad I can be here. But yeah, that’s feeling pretty obligated to have this conversation with you actually.

Bob Bickford: That was the wise choice, Brian. The wise choice.

Brian Croft: Yeah, that was good. That was, that was a good time on at Doki gave.

JimBo Stewart: Well, part of the reason we wanna bring you down here is one, we just love hanging out with you two. you have just put out, a new book with a couple of other co-authors, one of which will also be at the mi re planter event with us James Carroll, on pastoral friendships. And man, [00:02:00] this is such an important topic, I believe in God’s sovereignty, obviously, but in God’s sovereign timing. I think this was just timed really well where I think pastors have always struggled with isolation and having a hard time building good friendships. But, Through the pandemic and all the political tension in the country, I feel like it’s exacerbated the problem a little bit and made it maybe even more important that we get real intentional about building some friendships.

So tell us just a little bit about like what, what motivated you to write this book?

Brian Croft: Yeah. Well, so this has been an important topic for me also, Jimbo, as it is for you for years and, you know, with, The writing I do with Pral Shey, I, I just don’t write for the sake of writing. We’ve always kind of wanted to fill a gap where there’s a, a gaping hole of a resource, and I’ve, I’ve not, For years, I’ve watched friendship be something just not be addressed.

In fact, even when we decided to write this book, I’m telling myself like, all, like, there’s gonna be two or three books on pastoral friendship pop up while we’re in the middle of this. It’s just, everybody knows this is important, but, and there’s been a few books on friendship that [00:03:00] have come out in Christian circles in the last couple years.

but still nothing on, like, I can’t find anything on pastoral friendship directly. And I had it in a chapter of one of our books and that was it. And so that, that’s when we came together and said, Yeah, this, I mean, this needs to be done. And so, that was the burden. I mean, when we’re, we’re trying to fill the gap, the gaps in pastoral resources, this was always, this been a glaring gap for years.

And I’m convinced that to your point, I mean, pastors arguably need friends more than. Because pastors don’t have the same ability to make friends in their church that church members have with each other. So if pastors aren’t proactive to try to find those friendships other places, they just don’t have friends.

And, and it just, it just feeds the isolation and loneliness.

Bob Bickford: Brian, you work with a lot of pastors and particularly a lot of students who are, going to school, finishing their degree and pastoring. So you see guys that are just starting out. What are some of the common barriers or pushbacks that guys. Have or excuses they make regarding not really [00:04:00] taking pastoral friendship series.

Brian Croft: Well, I think a couple things coming to mind. One is guys just don’t realize how important it is. So I think there’s two lies that pastors believe. That are a part and accept, accepted as part of the calling of God to be a pastor. And one of them is I have to sacrifice myself for the ministry so they don’t take care of themselves.

And two, I have now giving up the right to have meaningful friendships because I’m a pastor. and I think both of those are lies. And I think if both of those, anybody who, kind of functions in that, in those lies, usually don’t last long in the ministry. So, deep conviction as you guys do. I know that, you know, pastors have to take care of themselves.

Uh, other people don’t take care of them very well. So pastor has to really be mindful to care for his own soul, care for himself and his life and to get rest and, and all those kinds of things. But I think friendship’s the other side, I think guys think that they just don’t, get to have friendships because that’s just part of the call.

It’s part of what they’re, they’re giving up so they don’t get to take care of themselves. [00:05:00]They’re never gonna be wealthy, and then they don’t get any friends. Those are kind of the three places everybody assumes it’s part of the pastoral call. And I, you know, well, you know, none of us are wealthy. That’s probably true.

But the other two are lies. And, the second thing that comes to mind is that, That guide pastors guys don’t pursue friendship because they see it’s a lot of of work, a lot of extra work to be a pastor and find friendships. So they’re looking at their ministries and all the things they have to do there.

They’re looking at their families and they wanna invest time there. I watch a lot of guys just, they just don’t prioritize, being a friend because, and having friendships. There’s just not the time. So you really gotta be intentional to try to look for. And you’re not guaranteed you’re gonna find it either with, even if you make that effort.

So I think that just discourages guys from even going.

JimBo Stewart: Do you think one of the things that makes pastors not do this, you said maybe the the hard work that it takes, but. As a pastor, there’s so much expectation on you to give your relational time to your members, and most pastors have very little relational time [00:06:00] left over, even for their spouse or their children.

And so the idea of finding the margin now to also develop a friendship, I think it becomes easy to kind of cut off and go, Okay, that. It’s just not when I have time for, because any free time I have really needs to be given to either my members or my family, and then there’s just not any left over. So how, what would you say to that struggle that pastors have

Brian Croft: Yeah, well, I think it’s, this is also connected to what I mentioned a minute ago, and that’s a conviction that a pastor has that he’s gotta take care of himself. And friendship is part of that, of taking care of yourself. So, you know, Jimbo, that that limited margin is true for. Exercise, isn’t it? It’s true for am I gonna only sleep six hours because I got all this to do, or I’m gonna fight for myself and get the eight hours of sleep that I need?

And I think friendship falls into the same category. It’s it’s a place that we trim when the margins get tight. And so I, I think it all falls into the category of, it’s not just okay. It’s, it’s [00:07:00] good. It’s essential that I do the things in my life. That were gonna be actually good for me and will take care of me.

See, just some people hearing what I just said are gonna think, Man, that feels really selfish now, Pastor, I’m giving my life to everybody else. Isn’t that part of the deal? And that’s the, that’s the the thing that a lot of guys miss, guys who realize it’s not selfish. It’s actually smart and wise and good.

And the key to longevity is that I, I fight to. Sleep at night. I fight to get some rest time and vacation up, and I fight to be able to have other relationships of people who will, who will be mutual relationships, not just the people in my church that I care for. Now, I believe you can find friendships in your church and that that’s, that’s great if you can do that.

But there’s still a lot of limitations around that. So I always encourage pastors, you need to pursue friendships in your church. and you need to pursue them outside the church. And hopefully you have friendships in both places, but if one area is not working out real well friendship wise, you have another option.

But when you just kind of pursue like, I’m just gonna pursue friendships [00:08:00] in my church, but that’s not working out well. Pastors find themselves and their wives find this is, they don’t have any friends because they look for it in just one.

Bob Bickford: Brian, some guys are hearing this and they’re probably saying, You know what? I just moved to the area. That I’m pastoring in. I’ve just called to the church and I’m, I’m getting to know some people within my church, but I do agree I need some pastoral friends outside of the church. What are some suggestions you might have for them in terms of practice?

How can they begin taking steps towards developing these kinds of friendships that you’re describing in your book?

Brian Croft: Yeah. Well, I think the, the key to pastors finding friendships is gonna be with other pastor. They may find it in the church within. That’s great if they can. But there, you know, you guys know this is just a, it’s a, it’s a meaningful fraternity and you’re able to connect with guys. Only a pastor knows what it’s like to be a pastor.

And so I think when you move to a new area and you’re looking, where do, where do I start to try to connect? I think trying to connect with other pastors over the churches, this is where the strength of the SBC needs to be. Celebr. [00:09:00] That’s, We have local associations, we have state conventions. We have these things that you can tap into regardless of where you are in the, in a city, in a state, whatever it is.

Now, Granite State conventions and local associations are, some are doing this better than others, but that is the place to start. I think Bob, like you connect with potentially like-minded guys and begin to try to develop those friendships. Hopefully if a local association is doing their job, they’re bringing pastors together.

On a regular basis to be able to develop those relationships and find those friendships. So I think that’s the place to start. Honestly, the other place I found this later in life that was so crucial for me is finding friendships outside my church of people who aren’t pastors. So, you know, Get to know the parents where your kids are playing ball, you know, get to, you know, whatever your school activities are.

Like, get to know the, the parents of the kids that are your kids’ age and try to develop some of those, those friendships, I think, and again, that gets us out in the community. It’s, it’s an opportunity to meet people as well, but I think [00:10:00] to do so, seeking to find some, maybe some meaningful friendships with somebody who doesn’t want you to be their pastor.

JimBo Stewart: One of the things I appreciate about the way that you put this book together is the first part of it is looking back, and so you, you look back into some past, some friendships in scripture and some historical friendships. just give, give us a little bit of insight, into that first section of the book.

Brian Croft: Well, I some it, some people will see just the brilliance of Michael Hagen. It’s really fun to have had him be a part of this book as well. But those who know Michael Haen, he is arguably the, the premier stor historian in certain areas of Trics as well as 18th Century Baptist, English Baptist Life.

And it was, you know, he’s the guy to bring in like the most abstract like examples of like, you know, like the fourth century and then like the 16th century that nobody’s ever heard of. And we were like, Yes, we love it. Like, let’s, let’s do it. You know? And in.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I was looking at this in Theta. I was looking at this and I was like, I don’t know who these people are. I don’t think.

Brian Croft: That was part of the [00:11:00] charm. We thought Jimbo was like, Why talk about Spurgeon’s friendships when you can hear about this guy that you’ve never heard about before? You know? And actually that was intentional. And of course that’s part of, I mean, that’s what makes Hayan such a brilliant historian is he knows these examples that nobody else does and he, and he brings them in as an example.

That these are friendships that existed hundreds of years ago. This, this is part of living the Christian life throughout history, is that you actually had, uh, meaningful friendships and friendships among leaders who were, who were in ministry. And I do appreciate the way that Michael, uh, you know, approached that and brought those examples in.

But the idea is to kind of establish this is not a new idea and, and that friendships. Are to be a part of. I mean, you read the New Testament, you just see the affection between men. particularly you got Paul writing to Timothy. Yeah. It’s a mentoring, you know, mentee relationship. Man. There’s a deep affection that existed there.

You see, you see the affection that that different [00:12:00] men had for each other when you’re. The, you know, acts and you’re seeing how the church being established so that that’s a, that’s embedded there, That affection that, that people have for each other, that comes out of the Christian faith that we all share.

And then throughout history to, to study history and to see how people have interacted. That’s why we started the book with, Spurgeon and, and Brown. Because, you know, everybody loves Spurgeon, you know, and, and I’m a big Spurgeon fan as well, but my, one of my favorite things, but Buyer cuz I read, it’s a, it’s a book on, Archival Brown.

It’s his biography. He’s a Spurgeon successor, but that’s where that intro came from. That’s one of the most powerful examples of pastor to pastor friendship I’ve ever read about. Everybody, you know, everybody talks about Spurgeon and he’s a line in the pulpit and he’s, you know, brown pastor to big church.

Well, what people don’t know that, that Ian Murray brought out in that biography, which was, which was just so inspiring to me, is, is that archival Brown lost three wives in 10 years. And the main person who grieved with Brown and cared for him during that was Spurgeon [00:13:00] and his friendship. And there’s this beautiful section of the book where it’s articulated on how Spurgeon cared for his friend and all that grief.

Brown, you know, Brown preached the funeral Spurgeon. A lot of people don’t know that, but Brown was able to speak outta this really sweet, kind of intimate male friendship that existed among them. And that’s really what we wanted to advocate for. And I think you have to look back and see history to realize.

This is not only pastors did this, but pastors did this to actually sustain themselves in the ministry.

Bob Bickford: Brian, one of the things that is challenging is that we’re friendly with a lot of people, but friends with very few, truly, and it’s a challenge to go from, Hey, I’m friendly with this person to, I actually would call them a friend on a deeper level. Can you give us some sense of how do you go from being friendly with several people to finding those deep, rich friendships with perhaps a.

Brian Croft: Yeah, you, you. Well, I think we all function that way. I think you have to recognize that pastors are no different. Can we all [00:14:00] agree guys that, that everybody functions that way. We’re friendly to a lot of people, but there’s a smaller group of people that we would consider friends that we bring into our inner circle, you know, whatever that is.

And pastors are no different. I think we just have to be a bit more intentional and calculated about who that is because, you know, this is, just wanna highlight one of the friend, one of the, challenges that, that every pastor listening to this will know. And that’s, you know, trying to find a friend in our church.

How do you know somebody who really just wants. Be a friend and love you for who you are or wants the inside track and all the church business and wants to be close to the pastor. That’s one of the main reasons it’s hard to be a pastor and have a lot of friends in the church without having to try to figure out how to be wise, you know, in the midst of that.

Having said that, I do believe you can find meaningful friendships in your church that you pastor, but we have to acknowledge, we have to be kind of more careful and discerning about what that might look like. So I think we have to function like everybody else, but I do think that that we, we have to go the extra step to know, [00:15:00] is this person, you know, really a friend to me?

Is there somebody? Here’s the question that I always ended up at. So I went through a series season. Four or five years ago of, of loneliness. And I, and I had a trouble identifying what was going on when I came to realize what was happening and where the loneliness was coming from. It came from, I’m pastoring a church and so I have all these people who want me to be their pastor and that, and I’m doing this ministry to with pastor, so I have all these pastors who want me to be their pastor.

And I found out that, that everybody wanted me to be their pastor that was in my life. And it created this sense of loneliness because it felt, even though I enjoyed being with people, I enjoyed, Caring for people. It, it felt very one sided in a lot of ways. And I realized I needed to go find some friendships of people who wanted to care for me as much as I wanted to care for them, but also just wanted me, for me, not what I could do for them.

And I think that’s the big distinction on how you identify those close friendships. It’s the guys that want you just because you’re you, not because of what you can maybe provide for them [00:16:00] or give them. And I’ve found some deep, meaningful friendships outside my. Of guys who weren’t pastors, so they didn’t want me to be their pastor.

And actually four or five years ago, I just had about two or three friendships. That became very meaningful to me because I realized that’s what I needed. It was, again, that was different than I needed 10 years ago, but this is what I found I needed and identified it in the loneliness I was feeling. So every pastor, I think has to figure out, what do you need?

It’s okay for you to pursue what you need once you realize what that is. And I think that’s how that smaller circle gets established.

JimBo Stewart: Early when I started ministry, I felt like I got a lot of conflicting advice on how to handle friendships within the church. A lot of pastors would tell me, You don’t make friends with people in the church because they’re, they’re gonna burn you. but then it just felt counterintuitive to how God’s wired me.

And so me and my wife talked about it and made a commitment that we would, we would develop friendships within the church, but like most pastors, we did get burned a lot. And, you know, One because of that one way street of [00:17:00] relationship that you talk about how they just wanted things from us. And then two, a key moment for us was there was a young couple that we, man, we had done their premarital counseling.

We had, I’d officiated their wedding. We’d been very close to them. and. we’d even just brought him on as a deacon at the church. They came over to our house, we’re having dinner, having a great time, laughing and just enjoying each other’s company. And then it was like we could literally feel like the temperature decrease in in our house.

And all of a sudden their accountants changed and they just said, We feel like God’s calling us to another church and they start telling us like all these reasons why they’ve gotta go to another church and they don’t even have another church picked out. And Bryan, they wanted us to help them pick out what church they needed to go to.

Brian Croft: Well, that’s what friends do. Jimbo, Come on,

JimBo Stewart: and it was, and you know, we put, we put on a brave face and we made it through that dinner. It was rough though. And here’s what I wanna tell you though. For my wife. For my wife, that was [00:18:00] brutal. She sat down later that night after they left and she wrote down the names of everybody we had had over to our house for dinner that was no longer at our church cuz either they moved or they chose to go to another church or something like that.

And I don’t remember how long the list was, but it was longer than I thought it would be.

and she looked at me and she showed me the list and she said, How do we. How do we keep doing this? How do we keep being friends with people and, and they’re gonna leave? And so talk about that. Navigating the friendships within the church.

What is the wise way to go about that?

Brian Croft: Yeah, that’s a great example. By the way. I think a lot of guys will be able to resonate with what you, what you just said. And I think, again, that that’s what, I’m not the guy that say don’t, don’t have friendships in the church. They’re loaded and dangerous, but they just, they are. but I don’t think that should prevent us from pursuing the friendships.

But I do think we need to have realistic expectation of what a friendship in the church looks like, and we gotta be careful about what that [00:19:00] means. The second thing I have found is my most meaningful friendships I found in our church as I was the senior pastor, were with other fellow pastors, or even just leaders in the church, guys that were assuming, assuming the similar burdens I was carrying in the church.

And there’s a camaraderie there. There’s a like-mindedness there. I think it allows, it kind of, it creates a peer to peer relationship more so, and I found my, my closest friendships, the people I trusted, really knew me and loved me and were truly my friend, were people who would, would fall into that category.

Now I had, I had a guy that, you know, I’d go watch, you know, he had this man fort in his basement. I’m a big football fan. He’s a big football fan. Like, I went to his house, watched all the games. We had a good time, you know, But I was not burying my soul to him in any of our conversations. This is not the relationship we had.

So I think that’s the third thing I would say is, you know, you can ha you can have friendships that provide a certain level of joy for you and them, and they don’t have to be your, your [00:20:00] best friend. And I think that’s the other thing is, it’s kind like we approach friendship. Sometimes I’m, I’m seeking to find my best friend all the time is gonna be my, my soulmate of a friend.

And it’s like, yeah, I mean that most of our friendships don’t ever become, So I think we have to have an expectation of, you know what, I have these five friends and I could, I can articulate to you why I invest in this friendship and why I enjoy it. But this friendship over here is different than that one.

And, and I think, by the way, I think that’s also an important way for us to approach our marriages. The guys who think their spouses provide every single piece of relational, you know, connection and you know, everything that we need relationally. I mean, that’s just, that’s just too much to put on a spouse.

I, I think that’s another reason we need friendships. It brings some relief off of our spouse having to try to meet every single one of those relational needs that we have. And I think as pastors in the church, we have to kind of approach friendship in a very similar way. The expectation is what, how we maximize, I think, the joy out of whatever we’re getting outta that friend.

Bob Bickford: [00:21:00] That’s really good. so much of the time we, we know this intuitively that there, that friendships form organically, right? And there are some of those God ordained for friendships that, that happened in our life where it was like, man, we, I didn’t see this relationship coming in terms of, of God providing me a brother who would be a lifelong brother.

That whether we’re together or we see each other at the state convention or the annual meeting, you know, we pick up where we left off. There’s some of those, those wonderful friendships. Brian, if as you think about the, the representation of friendships through history and scripture, which, which one or ones that stand out to you to go, Man, this is just really, when I think of friendship, this is really a sweet one for me.

Brian Croft: I, well, I, the one that rushed my mind and the one I, I mentioned, you know, to you before with, with Spurgeon and Brown, and that’s the one that’s kind of overlooked because, you know, again, Spurgeon is celebrated for so many other things. , but I think it showed just the tender side as Spurgeon and Brown.

And, and I think how, you know, let me say this, I think a lot of [00:22:00] men in America, you know, think that friendship is this kind of kind of tough guy club where we, you know, we do roughneck stuff and we hit each other in the arm and we watch ball games and eat hot wings together. But there’s, there’s not a level of, of emotional intimacy and, and I think.

those are the relationships that I think really show, true friendship and the things that, that last, So I think Spurgeon and Brown is, one that that comes to my mind. You know, I think the, you know, just reading the Pastorals and seeing the relationship that Paul and Timothy had and you, you hear about, I mean, Paul’s writing, like I’m writing and I’m thinking of you, and tears are in my eyes as I think of you.

You know, the, it was a, it was a fatherly type relationship, certain. But man, there was this, this emotional connection that I think a lot. A lot of men who are, who are raised to be tough guys and are, emotionally shut down, do not have the capability of doing. And I think that is a really important [00:23:00] piece to having a meaningful friendship, among men.

And so, but yes, Virgin Brown, that’s why I like that example. Kind of two giants and lions in church history that people celebrate. Uh, another example I would give is there’s a book called Wise Counsel. Banner Truth publishes it. One of my favorite books, it’s, it’s John Newton As an old man, everybody knows Newton Is, is, you know, famous for all his letters that he wrote.

Well, it’s a book about Newton writing letters to John Ryland Jr. So it’s Newton is this old wise pastor, basically mentoring Ryland through his letters, and it’s called Wise Council. It’s a beautiful book about, you know, that’s again, a pastoral mentoring relationship, but man, It’s more than that. So I think the relationships that show that this is not, that, that it goes deeper than a superficial level of, Yeah, we love hanging out and having some laughs, which are, is good.

But you know, where, where do I go? I always say this, Everybody needs a friend that they’re gonna call when you get one phone call and that you need ’em. Come bail you out in prison.

You know, who are you, who are you calling in that moment, you’re probably not calling the dude you [00:24:00] go and, and have some laughs with and eat hot wings with though I love.

I’m gonna call the guy who I know loves me. It doesn’t matter what I, he’s not gonna judge me. Like he’s gonna loves me. He’s gonna be there and he’s gonna come bail me outta jail. You know? Or he is, you know, I, whatever it might be, whatever scandalous place I’m in, who am I calling in that moment that, uh, that everybody else is gonna shun me with?

Like, we all need those kinds of friendships. And I, I think that’s the kind of level of intimacy among friends we need to find.

JimBo Stewart: So, man, I just would recommend to our boot campers grab you yourself a copy of Pastoral Friendship, the Forgotten piece, to a persevering ministry. I know this is such a hard thing. For guys who are driven in, kind of really task driven especially, and, try to be hyper productive to make time to.

Build up friendships for themselves, but I, I appreciate how you talk about it as a conviction. This is not just something that maybe you could add if you have time, there needs to be a conviction that you need [00:25:00] this, that this isn’t, this isn’t selfish, it’s smart, that maybe your local association is a good place to start.

go there, try to build some pastoral friendships and have some realistic expectations with friendships within the church. But you can’t do this alone. You’re not gonna be healthy without some level of friendship and, and some guys one that you can go and you can share your struggles with that aren’t a part of your church, but understand what it means to be a pastor is obviously helpful.

But then also guys that you can go and not talk about church. And not talk about the struggles, but you can just eat some wings and you can be watching football. You can be emotionally vulnerable. You can do all those things and punch each other in the arm. But go out there and, and make, make some friends.

Brian, I’m so grateful for you. I’m grateful to call you a friend. Thanks for being on the bootcamp with us today.

Brian Croft: thanks guys, and I want you to know that I feel comfortable calling either one of you if I need to be bailed outta prison. I just wanna be on record, so

appreciate

you all’s.

Bob Bickford: That’s good. We’re hoping you don’t go to prison.

Brian Croft: Just stick with the illustration anyways.[00:26:00]

JimBo Stewart: Have you ever gotten a come bail me outta prison

Brian Croft: No, I have not. But hey, life, Life is young, you know, so I got a lot of years left. Hopefully to be able to maybe experience that, especially if it’s a pastor,

that would be really

JimBo Stewart: I have.

but we’ll leave. leave that story for

Brian Croft: That’s the next episode, Jimbo, you know.