JimBo Stewart: [00:00:00] Back of the bootcamp. Bob, I hope you’re ready for the next episode. we have a few in the can and so we’re able to record ahead of time again, like the professionals that we are Bob, we’re. The great metropolis of Elk City, Oklahoma with Route 66 having some historic markers here and I think because we’re near Route 66 Hertz yet again, gave me a muscle car. Now I have a Mustang convertible. It’s no hell cat, but it’s still pretty fun.

Bob Bickford: I know. Are you going top down, shirt off.

JimBo Stewart: man, I wish it were warmer.

I would, I don’t know that there’s any scenario where I would go top off of myself, but I would

Bob Bickford: would,

JimBo Stewart: I could go top down for the Mustang.

but

I don’t, I don’t see me taking my top off at any

point.

Bob Bickford: Okay. Well, I mean, it’s, it is very, it’s very cold. So we, we are, north, and west of the snow ice mageddon, that is Dallas Fort Worth.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

Bob Bickford: elk City, Oklahoma for those who of you who have no idea where this is and are driving. And

we

don’t

JimBo Stewart: want, I had no idea where it [00:01:00] was till we planned

this event,

Bob Bickford: right? It is, it is smack dab between Amarillo, Texas where my son lives and Oklahoma City, where some friends of mine live.

and so we’re right in the middle of the open Prairie and plane. And, there’s actually quite a little metropolis here of, elk City, Oklahoma, and this is your first

time.

JimBo Stewart: In Oklahoma in general, yeah. Like the whole state, which I feel like I drove half of

it today. ,

Bob Bickford: uh,

JimBo Stewart: landed in Oklahoma City and got my Mustang and, drove my way to

Elk City.

Bob Bickford: It’s a very, wide state,

I

should

say. Yeah, right east to west.

It’s

pretty

wide.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. We’re in the panhandle

of like

the, like, but the panhandle here feels like it’s a lot smaller than the panhandle

of Florida.

Bob Bickford: Well, it is. Florida panhandle is bigger. Texas panhandle is bigger. So Oklahoma

is,

JimBo Stewart: take a little bitty

panhandle. a

little bit Yeah. But we had some good food.

We

had

prairie

fire. Yeah. and so

we’re excited. Tomorrow, the day after we record this, we’ll be jumping into our first revive event. Here’s what I’d say is when you’re hearing this, we’re probably coming [00:02:00] pretty. close to the Arizona and

Illinois.

Mm-hmm.

revive events. And so if we haven’t shut down registration on those, you should jump in on those as well. It’s me, it’s you, it’s Richard Blackaby, mark Clifton, Frank Lewis, Joe Kreider. just a great crew,

pouring

into guys.

Bob Bickford: Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. The focus is for pastors to encourage them. We know that pastoring can be hard and difficult, and not only do we want to encourage you, but we’d like to give you some helpful information and equipping along with just encouraging you.

Cuz, and you can go to an event Jimbo and you can get fired up. Like, oh my gosh, yes, I’m gonna stay in ministry for hundred more years. Yes. But if we, if you only have a feeling and you don’t have some things that you can actually put a handle on and take home, you might not have that feeling on

Monday

after

the

next

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So we want to give you some meat to the bones that, help you not only be encouraged to continue, but give you some things to implement, some tools in your toolbox, some perspective that gives you [00:03:00] greater

wisdom

in

your

leadership.

Bob Bickford: Absolut.

JimBo Stewart: Well, speaking of which, one of the things we wanna talk about is, the importance of lay leader.

in

church renewal. And so, talk. What is

lay leadership,

Bob?

Bob Bickford: yeah, lay leaders are non ordained, non-vocational leaders, members of the church who contribute towards the

welfare

and

the

mission

of

the

church.

JimBo Stewart: Hmm. That’s a good definition. as we think about that, one of the things, I was talking with Joe Kreider in the car earlier today and we were talking about the importance of league leadership and I said, and Joe agreed with me and he’s smarter and more educated than me,

so I feel

like it

has to be right.

Bob Bickford: His voice is really great too. He doesn’t, he doesn’t have a great voice. And by the way, Joe Kreider is the, The director of the School of Worship

for

Southwestern,

for

those of you who don’t know who Joe

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. So I mean this is kind of turning into, we’re

being

sponsored

by

Southwestern,

but without receiving any actual sponsorship.

No. Uh, Joe is leading worship here in teaching about worship, and we were talking today as we were getting some things [00:04:00] ready, uh, just

about

one guy by himself. But, and we talked about this in a previous episode, by force of personality, can maybe get some things done, but that’s not sustainable. Really sustainable renewal.

Requires lay leadership, buy-in. one guy just is not gonna do it.

It’s

not gonna

be

enough.

It can get something sparked, it can get something, it can be a catalyst, but for sustained renewal in health, and you have to have

strong

lay leadership.

Bob Bickford: Absolutely. It’s biblical Jimbo. When you think about First Corinthians 12 that talks about the body and all the different parts

of the

body and where they’re all needed, you don’t have a body that’s just eyes or hands or ears.

I mean it all works together. It all coordinates. It all has its part. And so Paul, when he is writing to the church, says, you are the body of Christ. Mm-hmm. , each one of you is part of it. And so one of the things. That

can happen [00:05:00] in a pastor’s mind sometimes is he takes on the responsibility of

the church

for himself.

right? Mm-hmm. or on himself, I should say. Like, I’ve gotta do everything. I’ve gotta be a thing. Now we, we also talked about, when we talk about the characteristics of a re planter, they’re a

resourceful

generalist. Yeah. And sometimes Jimbo in a solo staff church or in a church that’s older, where you have a lot of older members, sometimes a pastor

does

have to

bear a lot

of weight

and do a lot of different things.

Yeah. But that’s not how God designed it.

Right. And so there’s a difference, and I think we’ve highlighted this before when we’ve. as a resourceful generalist, you need to be able to do a lot of things, but you don’t need to have the need

to

do all

everything. Yeah. Right. you realize that you may have to cover some bases for a while, but ultimately you’re supposed to, to help that body get mobilized for ministry.

And one of your favorite verses, Ephesians for Right. Talks about that. Yeah. 4 11, 12 talks about the fact that he’s given leaders to the church for the express purpose, not

of doing.

not

of doing everything, but

for

the

equipping

of

the

saints

for

the [00:06:00]

ministry.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. I like to say resourceful journalists are willing to do anything but

wise

enough

to

not

do

everything.

There

you

go.

Love

how

you

say that.

so knowing how to develop leaders in the process, and here’s one of the reasons I love that, Ephesians for 11 and 12 part where it talks about the leadership of the church equipping the saints to do the work of ministry.

I

think

for people

who

are.

task

oriented and

productivity oriented,

we

can tend to forget that the ministry is about people and we have to be

pouring

into people

more than building

great

programs.

Yeah.

Now people oriented, people

that aren’t

as task-oriented, but they’re more people oriented, may forget that it’s not just, I don’t just need to love the people actually need. Help equip them. Like there needs to be movement and growth spiritually and in their ability to help build others into maturity.

And there has to be some process to that where we’re [00:07:00] actively seeing something happen. And so I think it’s, that verse is like a corrective for either extreme. If you’re all people, no task. It reminds you that there, there is a task. The job is to equip the saints for the work of ministry, which is described in the following verse as billing

one.

Up into maturity. But if you’re all task oriented, reminds you the task actually isn’t the goal. The the people are the goal and it’s equipping the saints to do the work of ministry.

And so

that’s

part of

where

being a resourceful generalist

and

being a control freak. Can look like the same thing on the outside, but part of it is actually why are you doing the thing?

Are you doing it to serve and to take care of something or are you doing it? Cuz if I

equip

someone else

to do

it,

they won’t

do

it

as

Bob Bickford: Mm-hmm.

JimBo Stewart: And

that’s

being

a

control freak.

Bob Bickford: Yeah.

And sometimes it’s

easier to follow

into that trap. The, the latter thing that you mentioned about.

I could give this way, but I don’t want, I, I want it.

to be done this way. Right. And so, I mean,

I, I battle

that

we all battle that. Right. In different ways. [00:08:00] And

I think

one

of

the

best things to do when you, if you are that, like, let’s say for a replant, or it’s the bulletin or it’s the, you know, greeting or it’s the prayer they feel like, man, I really want it to be exactly like this.

Well, that’s your pre. and if it’s not a biblical theological issue, and they, and it’s, you know, somebody’s learning how to do that, they’re gonna do it in

a style that,

that conveys

who they are. And here’s the hard lesson for us to learn

as

pastors and rep planters.

We

are

not

the end all, be all in terms

of style.

And we will connect with a large, and, and most pastors connect with

a

large group of people. But some people like Jimbo, have you ever had the guy that preached his first sermon and you, you’re sitting there the whole

time

trying

to smile and not

frown because it’s

a train

wreck. Right.

And you’re just like, you’re

like,

this

is

the

worst

sermon

I

have

ever heard in my life.

And have

a

few

that

compete

with

each other.

Yeah. And how are we gonna remedy this? But then somebody comes up to that guy [00:09:00] and says to.

man,

that is the best sermon I have ever heard. And you’re thinking are, do you have headphones in? Are we like listening to

the

same thing?

And

the deal

is

the Lord used him to convey biblical truth in

a way

that is different from

you

and

somebody

connected

with

it.

Mm-hmm.

in

a different

way.

So

that

principle

also applies to ministry inside the church that, that we are not the standard. Of ministry, like for ministry excellence,

right?

We may

do some things with excellence, but the Lord calls us to raise up other people to do ministry because there are other people and their, their personalities and their styles and their approaches,

their

language,

their insight, their background, their, you know, all the things that the Lord’s gonna use in

to,

to

meet

and

to

speak to

people

in

ways

different

than

he

does

through us.

JimBo Stewart: I would say in ministry, if your

pursuit

of excellence

is

leading

to

isolation,

you’re

doing

it wrong

There you.

go. because.

If

you

use

excellence as

a

bar that becomes

so [00:10:00] exclusive,

then almost

no one can get to

it.

I feel like you’ve missed what this whole thing is about. Uh, it’s one of the, Neil Cole has a book called, cultivating a Life for God.

It’s a great book about discipleship and understanding discipleship in a biblical way. And

one of

the distinctions

that he makes

that I really

like is he says, when it comes to, now this is

not about leadership

development,

and

that’s

the point

he

makes,

is when

it comes to discipleship, far too often discipleship looks.

leadership development. And he goes, here’s the problem with

that.

Not everybody in your church is called to be a leader, but

every member

is

called

to

be

a

disciple.

Mm-hmm. .And so if your discipleship process does not allow for people who aren’t quote unquote, excellence by your defined measure. and you exclude them from discipleship, you have way missed the mark.

Now when it comes to leadership, certainly there’s things we’re gifted to do, called to do, and we want to use the gifts that God has given us for the [00:11:00] edification of the body. And so we do need to identify, and there are some things, no matter how passionately I may want to sing a solo

on Sunday

morning,

it’s

not

a

good

idea.

We’ve

established

that

already somewhat so

together. Yeah.

And so

it’s,

it doesn’t

matter.

So

you’re You’re excluding

me. Not

because

I

wouldn’t

be

excellent

because I

would be

distractingly

bad.

It

would

not help

accomplish

the

purpose, but I think man, be okay with kind of the underdog mentality and the misfit island of misfit toys, cuz that’s kind of the way the whole.

Christian Church was built like the, vagabonds and fishermen and weirdos that Jesus always hung out with, right? And like he hangs out with Nicodemus and he intentionally leaves Nicodemus a little bit confused and unclear. . But then he goes to the next chapter and he is with this woman with a really bad reputation that is trying to avoid talking to anybody.

So she comes to the well during the heat of the day, and John four, because she’s already got such a bad [00:12:00] reputation. She’s tired of hearing people talk about her, and that’s who he tells. Yes, I am the Messiah. And he, you see a revival happen, not in

a Jewish community,

in a Samaritan community, the misfits.

And so

don’t get distracted

by

the pretty

popular

people.

God

usually works

through the misfit.

Bob Bickford: Yeah,

I,

I

love that perspective

and I

think

it’s really,

helpful. .

And I think it also is

life giving.

And it

is hope

giving. Right. Because

if you do

look

at

the people who Jesus called,

they

weren’t the

elite,

highly

educated. ,

et cetera. Now, Paul

was

probably the elite, educated, you

know,

leader in

his day.

Mm-hmm. .

But, he did have a, a bit of a, a, an issue with anger and

JimBo Stewart: um Yeah.

Bob Bickford: you

know,

he

was

trying

to

kill

the

church .

Right.

So, Well,

I think there’s

JimBo Stewart: hints too

that

Apollos

was a

better

communicator than him. Yes. There.

Bob Bickford: true.

You’re

right. There’s true.

JimBo Stewart: And

so,

like, he,

I think Paul

was probably a

really good

written communicator.

Mm-hmm. . But

I think there’s some

hints that he wasn’t necessarily that great of a

verbal

[00:13:00] communicator.

Bob Bickford: Right.

JimBo Stewart: Or

at

least

not as

good

as

a,

not as

dynamic

as

Apollos.

Bob Bickford: Right.

And some, whatever the thorn in his flesh

was.

Right.

It’s

not was, I don’t

think. it was deacons that

were

the thorn in his flesh.

JimBo Stewart: But,

um,

I heard

somebody

say

one time I was

his ex-wife

Bob Bickford: I

don’t

know Wayne, I’ve heard people say it was his eyesight, you know, and all cuz he always talks about what large letters I’ve written with, you

know,

and

all

that kind of stuff.

So, who knows? But, the point

is that, yeah,

even,

and this is true for every single leader that we

see.

and

Clifton

and

I were

even talking about today

there are so many pastors

who appear to be, you know, this incredible leader and behind the scenes and we could just start rattling off names, like, there, there

are

parts of leaders lives who

have large public

platforms

that

no one

sees,

but

every single

one

of em has feet of That

makes sense,

right? Yeah. There’s

a part

of

their life that is and a part of their skillset that

is not

like

JimBo Stewart: most excellent.

They’re

not

a

hundred

percent

Yeah.

They’re

Bob Bickford: some ways and, and not in some others.[00:14:00]

JimBo Stewart: Well,

and

one

of

the

distinctions I

think

we

have

to make

is

that,

well, we

should

not exclude because of excellence

or

incompetency necessarily.

I do

think

there

are

some

things where

we

do exclude

character flaws. Yeah. obviously there, you know, as far as giving leadership. But another one

I would say

is emotional intelligence. and I, I pull this

actually.

I believe from scripture, Romans chapter 12, where

it says

you shouldn’t

think

you

should

have a

sober

judgment

and not

think

too highly of yourself.

Usually

people

with emotional intelligence overestimate their competency in certain areas, especially in social, situations.

They

believe their

social

skills

are

better

than

they actually.

are

because

they’re just

not self-aware enough to know that their social skills aren’t what they’re supposed to be.

there needs to be some help in understanding what it is like to have your talk, be seasoned with salt and what it is like to, not

think too

highly of yourself and understand how God has wired you [00:15:00] and operate within the fruit of the spirit, and part of that being self-control and patience and gentleness and love and kindness and those levels of maturity,

I think have

to be considered

depending

on

what

type

of

leadership

you’re

giving

to a

lay leader.

Bob Bickford: Absolutely.

I think,

I’m

gonna take

a

little exit ramp

off of that if

I can.

Come

on.

So,

you

highlighted

the fact

of emotional intelligence being,

an understanding of yourself

and how

you come

across.

And

maybe so

If

you

lack self-awareness

or some emotional intelligence

in the

sense

of,

you’re selling your skills in yourself at like a high level, like I’m a high level leader, and you may be

like a

medium

to

lower level. .

leader.

Right? So there, there is, there is that. I think where I see some people get in trouble

with

emotional

intelligence

is

they equate passion

with

competency.

So I believe in this. I’m so excited about this and I

am,

because

of

my passion,

I

am

competent.

And

what I would say is you [00:16:00] are captured

by

your

passion,

but

your

passion

does

not To competence.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah,

absolutely. Just cuz

you’re really

excited about

doing

something doesn’t

mean

you actually

have

a

good ability to do it.

Bob Bickford: Right. So when

I

started playing tennis,

I was

so excited about playing

tennis

and I kind

of self-taught.

And I could hit the ball really hard and I figured some things out and I watched a few, there was a, I think a guy named Vic Braden or something that had like tennis books. And it’s interesting, he had a, he’s a kind of an older, middle-aged man that didn’t look like a very effective tennis player.

he wrote all these books about playing tennis. He’s a, he looked like a daddy. He had a comb over and ,

he like, so,

So

I figured out how to surf, right? Yeah. And I was really good, up to a

certain level, but then I would get out on the court in my passion for tennis and I’d play somebody who knew how to play and it would just be a disaster.

Right? So, so I see this, and we get

asked

this question

a lot of times.

How

did you

and

I end up

in the job that we have?

Yeah. And, so. I love that people

are

[00:17:00] super, super passionate about church revitalation and replanting and

all those

sorts of things, but

sometimes

passion doesn’t equate with

competence

and knowledge.

Mm-hmm. .

Right. The other thing I love about what we do and who we get to meet is there, a lot of people

are saying, man, I want

to

learn everything that I can. So

I would

just want to say to the guys out there who really wanna make a

kingdom

contribution,

a

couple

of thoughts is, , may go serve in a little church, either alongside

a pastor

or be

a pastor.

Like learn and learn from lay leaders who’ve been serving around, you know, cuz we’re kind of really talking about lay leaders. Like learn

some

really good lay leaders who’ve been serving for a long time. And then, See what

the

Lord teaches you. Yeah. And then be humble and then maybe go and try to serve another church, before you create a

website,

develop a platform, all those sorts

of things.

Yeah. and serve alongside

of

Lay,

because

I

think

some of

the best pastors

and

leaders

in

the

churches

are

laypeople

who’ve been there

for decades.

JimBo Stewart: Yeah.

Bob Bickford: [00:18:00] So I love, I

love

that

aspect

of

how

the,

how

we

as

quote

unquote

professional

clergy can learn from

lay

JimBo Stewart: I mean, I think there’s so many lay people

that

have,

taught

me

more

about

ministry

than pastors

have.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . and in, in every church I’ve been in, I can name people, I can name, Mr.

Jerry that when I first started ministry would take me to jail ministry with him. And I learned how to. Going to jails and prisons and, and then, Mr. Gibson, who would take the van to the local university, pick up international students, take ’em to Walmart, help ’em get their groceries and help ’em get back to

their apartment.

And

he taught

me,

don’t

come

on

the van

and

just

start

spitting

the

gospel.

Like

build a relationship with them. They will ask, they’ll bring it up and you’ll get opportunities and,

and he taught me

about cross-cultural ministry in evangelism. Right. And I think I have a guy named Ansel in

New Orleans that.

Started

to use his small [00:19:00] group on Sunday nights to reach his lost neighbors, and, it was reaching so many of his lost neighbors that the group outgrew his living room and he hired an interior decorator to knock out walls and make a bigger living room, and then led her to Jesus And then we baptized her and then she helped redecorate the church in New Orleans.

And

I

mean,

and

this,

he’s

a

lay guy,

right?

And,

and

here was one

of

the things

as

far as

lay people,

cause

I know we

have

some

lay

people

that listen

to

this.

Here’s

what

he, he

came

to our

pastor

and

he said this,

I

want you to treat me like I’m a

paid

staff

member.

Hmm. Like, that’s the kind of accountability and expectations I want you to give to me. and I just think of John and Janice who have just said, Hey, our ministry is loving kids. And, Buddy and I mean, I could just, I could continue to name so many lay people that have made

such a profound

impact

on my ministry, my

life. Rodney

Richardson that

we had

on

the

podcast before Patty, that

I’ve talked

about before,

 there’s such an opportunity to make such a lasting [00:20:00] and real impact

in

a church

through

good

lay

leadership. And

so

one,

I

I guess I

would want

the pastors listening to this To recognize

Bob Bickford: the

JimBo Stewart: gold mine

that

you have

in

Bob Bickford: your

people,

in, in people

that you

may

even

think,

you don’t

even

know what

to do with,

might

Mm-hmm. .

Yeah. I

think so many

of the churches that

we

are

seeking to

encourage

and,

and

the pastors that

we’re

seeking to

encourage

and

equip,

feel

like

if

they can’t hire someone. . Mm-hmm. or several, somebodys to do ministry, then, then they

really

can’t do

ministry

and

so

I I think you’ve just made a good point.

You

know, kind of the

hall of, faith, fame of faith, you know, that you

just listed through right there. Those are all individuals who have made significant contributions to the kingdom. So, You

know,

people say it this way. God

has

given you every resource you need to

do the ministry he’s

called you to

do.

And so

part of it is discovering that and unleashing that. And then what that typically does is, is your people are,

as

they’re

[00:21:00] unleashed

for

ministry,

then

more

people

come

and

more

people

JimBo Stewart: Yeah. and

more

Bob Bickford: people

come.

And so you become a

mobilizer of

people

for

effective ministry.

JimBo Stewart: That’s

good.

That’s

a good

word,

man. And

so

for

the laypeople listening,

I, I just wanna say

you’re

not

playing a smaller, insignificant role.

I

mean, this

is huge.

I’m convinced that for a great renewal to happen in the North American Church, It won’t primarily come from pulpits or pundits, but from the pews.